M: ((Again, thank you all very much for being here. The presence of each one of you is very important for us. I have given you each a sheet of paper and a pen, and I would like you to write down three ideas or words that come to your mind when you think of the European Union.))

(short pause)

ESFG2_M2: I don't remember anything [laughs].

MA: The first thing that comes to you.

(long pause)

M: Yes, can we do a round to comment on what you have...?

ESFG2_M1: Well, I have put: "two speeds", because I think there is a two-speed Europe. The poorer countries, which would be Portugal, Spain, Greece, Italy and so on, and then a little bit the impositions that come from Brussels or Europe.

M: Very good. [talking to ESFG2_M1] And who/which would be the other speed? Which countries?

ESFG2_M1: Oh, the rich countries: Germany, all the northern European countries.

M: Okay. ESFG2_M2.

ESFG2_M2: "Diversity, stability and war".

M: Okay, why did you say that?

ESFG2_M2: That's the first thing that came to my mind. "Diversity", because that's what there is, or that’s what I see at least in my [gesturing, referring to its circle or the environment]... [laughs]. "Stability" because... (short pause), I don't know, I have stability [laughs], {I think} that in Spain, there are opportunities, as I see it, according to my... And "war", because right now it is, as you all know, right? That's the way it is. Well, that's what is being talked about, what I hear too.

ESFG2_M1: Yes, we are very much into wars in Europe [laughs].

ESFG2_M2: Well, I don't know... I don't know.

ESFG2_F4: I wrote: "economy, union and aid".

M: Why did you choose these words?

ESFG2_F4: Well, they would be linked. The economy assimilates {probably meant ‘links’} some countries with others with the Euro. Economically, in Germany, or well in Brussels, there is a political group... I mean, a representation of all the countries and they can expose there. So, I understand: economy, aid and union. I don't see much more.

M: Okay. ESFG2_F5?

ESFG2_F5: Well, I have put... maybe it is a little simple, but I have put: "Politics, economy and union".

[ESFG2_F3 enters the room and settles down. This generates some distraction, noises and silences for a few seconds].

M: And why did you put that?

ESFG2_M5: Because for me that is what the European Union is about. Basically it is politics, economy and union. "Politics" because it is something that is implicit, "economy" because that is what rules, and "union" is because it is a set of countries that form the European Union.

M: Great (short pause). Hello ESFG2_F3.

ESFG2_F3: Hello, I apologize for the delay.

M: Don't worry, we've already started. We have the recorders on, for your information. And what I was asking you is to tell us three quick ideas that come to your mind when you hear the word "European Union."

ESFG2_M1: Two, right?

M: Three or two [laughs].

MA: Three [laughs].

M: Three or two [laughs].

ESFG2_M1: Earlier you said two, that's why I said and I wrote two.

M: [Addressing ESFG2_F3] If you have anything over the top of your head that you would like to say...

ESFG2_F3: Well, the European Union is also generally linked to foreign policy.

M: Okay. In general, how would you say you feel about the European Union?

ESFG2_F4: In what sense? If you can expand a little bit more.

M: Yes. For example, would you say that being a citizen of the European Union has any particular meaning for you?

ESFG2_F5: Yes, you are part of something, right? I mean... I, particularly, I do feel I am a European citizen.

(long pause)

M: Does it generate any particular feeling to you?

ESFG2_F4: It is a perk (OL: una prebenda), being European.

M: What do you mean by perk?

ESFG2_F4: It is a benefit, clearly.

ESFG2_F5: Yes, it is an advantage.

ESFG2_F4: You have a passport from any European country and you are not treated the same as other people with other passports.

(short pause)

M: Any other ideas?

ESFG2_M1: I do not see it as very positive. I see that since we have joined the European Union the Euro has been imposed. The Euro has made everything much more expensive. I see that there have been cutbacks, for example, in the {country side} towns they have said that the vineyards have to be cut back because they have to promote wine from other countries, they have to promote a series of other things. So, I do not see that we gain much from the European Union. And then, I see many differences between the countries of northern Europe and the countries of southern Europe, where we are in debt to the hilt, and I don't see anything that you can say: "it is good for me". Even what I see is that they use our countries as simply to {us} be waiters, to come here to have a good time, to be drunk tourists and little else. And I don't see either... That… A European policy. Now, as a European I do feel that there is a kind of, like, European culture that, more or less, we can be a little bit united and have something in common between all the countries and us. But politically, no.

M: The rest, do you see it the same way?

ESFG2_F3: I, for example, do consider, as she does [pointing to ESFG2_F4] that it is positive-

ESFG2_F4: -Well, I did not mean it was positive, I said it is a privilege. But yes, it favors the one who has it to the detriment of others.-

ESFG2_F3: -Well, as far as I understand it, for me what it means to be in the European Union is more positive than negative. It also has its counterpoints, maybe negative, as in everything... As they say {referring to people in general}, "life has become more expensive" and a series of things, yes, it is true. But then we also have other things that we did not have before. Well, for example, we can use European funds for training, employment... a series of things, which many times not everybody- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F5: -European mobility, simply put-

ESFG2_F3: -Not everybody is informed about this kind of things, and maybe there are more aids than you think, many more possibilities. We also have the EURES system, for mobility between different countries in terms of employment, studies, scholarships. A series of things that, a million years ago, when I was studying, did not exist, for example. And now, well, many young people are benefiting from all this. I have often heard that “Europe starts from the Pyrenees upwards". I believe that this is, a little bit, a weight/guilt that many {Spaniards} carry (OL: es el Sambenito que tienen), I do not consider it for me, that we are "the poor kin", so to speak, of Europe. That we are a country that "we are never at the level of the rest of the countries", because we compare ourselves with Germany, with France, with other countries that, of course, the purchasing level {purchase power}, the level of employment, the level of salaries, the level of everything is much higher than that of Spain. But well, it is assumed that we will have to work on it to achieve, let us say, a certain equality, if it is possible. But I see it as positive.

ESFG2_F5: I am of the same opinion. I see more positive things than negative things. Obviously, being part of the European Union, apart from opening borders and favoring mobility, what the colleague said about the fact that, of course, what was worked on at national level that used to stay here now goes out to other countries, but we also benefit from this return: "same as things goes out, things comes in", don't we? I think that the vision of Spain in Europe is like that because, when we entered the European Union, we were one of the countries that needed to enter the European Union. That is to say, between not being there and being there, we had to be there. In other words, that in my opinion, that is how it is... in other words, they saved us. Another thing is the management of the COVID, and sanitary, well, in the last events, like when the donation of masks in Europe came out but “they were not arriving, not arriving”, and the WHO interceded. Then the person in charge of Europe, the representative of Europe, came out and said that... they sort of apologize to countries such as Spain and Italy for not having known how to manage it. Which also seems to me to be very positive, on his part. That is to say, within the bad, I think if we all would recognize our own mistakes, it would be much better for all of us. If they would recognize the mistakes, at the political level, at least here in Spain, rather than covering them up... I, for example, at a particular level, talking about the issue of aid, of funding through Europe, I, in particular, have had the opportunity to travel to countries thanks to programs such as Erasmus+. And that has allowed me to be in countries and meet people and have that mobility in a subsidized way, when, if it had not been like that, I would never have been able to afford it. So I think it is a positive thing.

[00:11:15]

M: Someone had mentioned that "Europe starts from the Pyrenees upwards", and it had also come up before the recording started. I wanted to know, if you have heard more people saying this, or why do you think people say it? Or, if you believe it yourselves, why?

ESFG2_F4: I believe so.

ESFG2_F5: Well, I don't understand this concept very well. I heard it when the colleague said it [referring to ESFG2_M1, who had also said it before starting the recording]. I don't understand... I perceive that it is something negative, but I don't understand exactly what it refers to.

ESFG2_M1: I will tell you quickly, in two words. We have the Canary Islands, the Canary Islands have a jurisdictional water where the Canary Islands are supposed to be European, but the Canary Islands fishing grounds cannot be fished by the Canary Islanders. The Moroccans and the Japanese come to fish. The Canary Islanders cannot go fishing there. And it is supposed to be European water, because the Canary Islands is European and it corresponds jurisdictionally to the Canary Islands. So I see that Europe is not doing anything to put a limit there, so to speak. So, I do not see what good Europe is doing, in this case, to the Canary Island fishing vessels.

ESFG2_F4: But does the same thing happen in Gibraltar?

ESFG2_M1: No, not Gibraltar. I am saying-

ESFG2_F4: -No, no, I’m just asking, I don't know.

ESFG2_M1: No, I am talking about the Canary Islands and surrounding.

ESFG2_F4: So, what if what happens in the Canary Islands also happens in Gibraltar? According to your theory that... Besides, from the Pyrenees to the Canary Islands there is a long way in between- (overlapping)

ESFG2_M1: -Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes...-

ESFG2_F4: -I mean, the Canary Islands have their idiosyncrasies, but is what you say applicable, for example, to Gibraltar?

ESFG2_M1: Well, I don't know, I don't know how the...- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -I am asking if it is a geopolitical or geographic issue, or economic agreements of our government of Spain, or of the European Union- (overlapping).

ESFG2_M1: -No, no, no, no, there is no agreement, I think it is the imposition of Morocco that wants to impose itself there and the imposition of- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F3: -I have always heard this from the point of view that Africa starts in the Pyrenees.

M: And what do you think people mean when they say this?

ESFG2_F3: Well, a little bit in the sense that Spain… We are comparing ourselves… or saying, that we are a third world country, like Africa. That’s all. Like this. What happens is that I think that as long as we have this negative thinking, we will never advance.

ESFG2_F5: And this thought you are talking about, is it something that comes from here in Spain? Because this is the first time I hear it.

ESFG2_F3: Well, I've always heard it in Spain.

ESFG2_M1: Me too.

ESFG2_F3: When I have traveled abroad, and I like to travel, whenever I have been able to I have traveled, I have not heard it. I think it's a Spanish issue.

ESFG2_F4: But I think it has not always been... I have heard it, but for me, it has a charge that, I understand it is negative, but not for me. I think that from the Pyrenees down Spain is Mediterranean, and then we would be more similar to Africa or the Greeks, than to the Germans or the British. In other words, we are Europe, but the climate... I don't know, I think it is a combination of everything. And, of course, we have no industry, our economy is precarious and we live on tourism.-

ESFG2_F5: -Otherwise we would have nothing to offer, my goodness!- (overlapping)

ESFG2_M1: -They have taken it away from us. We had shipyards, we had mines, and it's all gone [makes a sound with his mouth, similar to evaporation].

ESFG2_F4: But that has not been... I mean, now. That was before the European Union- (overlapping).

ESFG2_M1: -And we made boats, and the boats sold well, and there were no problems.

M: And, when you say "they’ve taken away from us", who do you mean?

ESFG2_M1: Well, between the government and the European Union they have been dismantling the whole industry. And more than anything else ( ) everything is services, bars, restaurants, hotels and little else. And, in fact, in the last elections, in which the PP won, they said: "let everybody from outside come to Madrid to try to set up companies" and they were very dedicated to the tourism sector, a lot. So...

M: Okay, and another question, what benefits do you think it has had for Spain to belong to the European Union? Some people have already more or less said some, but...

ESFG2_F4: Above all, money.

ESFG2_F5: Yes.

ESFG2_F4: The money. Because everything that ESFG2_M1 comments, in my opinion, about livestock and so on, all that has gone initially, before China manufactured basically everything in this world. In Spain, the gentlemen that... I mean, they were paid quotas for the number of cows that they stopped having. And that's a personal decision. And also one has to be responsible, one cannot say that "it is Europe". One has the power to say "this is not for me". If one participates in it... People were interested in the money, so what is the ( )? Because there was... it's not: "I slaughter my cows and it's nothing", no. It's money, and money, and money. And that we have used it quite badly [makes a gesture with his hands]... Well, I am going to record it: I am making the gesture of "it was stolen, it was stolen, it was stolen". Because, really, if that money had been put into something useful, “our hair would look better” {metaphor}.

ESFG2_F3: For me that is one of the big problems. I believe that money comes to us, but the management of that money is at the political level. Of course, and then, you can be more or less in agreement, but there will always be a majority that does not agree and there will always be a majority that is fine with it, but not everybody is going to be fine with it. And, feeling that you are part of, as a member of the European Union, you should be able to enjoy... or that there should be transparency in the distribution of those aids that come from the European Union, and not that they are simply distributed in the way that so-and-so considers that at that moment they have to do it. So, I believe that in Spain there is a lot of distrust towards our policy, as such. And yes, it is not known, or it is not well known, why we do trust more in the management at European level than at the particular level. I think it also comes from the idea that we had to be rescued at the time. We were in a bad situation, and they were people, or an institution, that helped us to recover and to live and have the opportunities that we have today.

M: [addressing the area where ESFG2_M2 sits] And, on this side, can you think of any benefits of belonging to the European Union?

ESFG2_M2: Benefits... the thing is that I, European Union issues... when we entered the European Union I was very young, so I'm not informed. The difference, for me, was from pesetas to Euros... And now, well, I don't compare salaries and that... no. But, maybe, the difference is that we live with more aids and more precariousness, as he/she was saying [referring to another participant]

ESFG2_F4: But I don't think the precariousness here comes from Europe. I think it comes from a State that feeds paternalism with aid, but does not give the freedom to work and be independent. Well, the idea it's a bit twisted.

M: Well, and on the other hand, what disadvantages do you think it has had for Spain to be part of the European Union?

ESFG2_M1: [Sighs] Everything, basically.

M: For example?

ESFG2_M1: I, for example, see that when, for example, olives have been promoted in the agricultural world, it has left many generations who can no longer dedicate themselves to agriculture...-

ESFG2_F4: -How many generations?-

ESFG2_M1: -Well, people of my generation who in my father's town are engaged in agriculture, have had to move to other larger surrounding towns or directly to Madrid, because agriculture is already vetoed.

ESFG2_F4: Damn, well my parents came from Andalusia and they were born in '45. I'm 44 years old. The Euro, and the Community, understood as Europe, as all the European countries, they don't go as far as... I mean, I mean, they don't go as far back in generations. I was 22 years old when the Euro started. I mean, generations and people went to the city to earn more money, but because it is more rewarding to earn money in the city than to work in the countryside- (overlapping).

[00:20:10]

ESFG2_M1: -No, but ( ). Right now it is not profitable... You have some land and it is not profitable- (overlapping).

ESFG2_F4: -Neither was it before- (overlapping)

ESFG2_M1: -And on top of that, if they set crop quotas and you cannot exceed those quotas, it is even less profitable. And in fact you are seeing, in the "emptied Spain" (OL: en ‘la España vaciada’) this is what is happening, that people are leaving the villages for the cities and abandoned villages are being left behind.

ESFG2_F3: But that would have happened anyway, even if we were not part of Europe, I think.

ESFG2_F5: That is progress.

ESFG2_F3: My whole family is Asturian, and they are miners and they are farmers. And many have taken advantage of the livestock issue, which I think you have mentioned, the issue of milk, milk production. Thanks to that they have been able to get ahead. Because they would not have been able to make a living with the milk produced by the cows at the local level, there in Asturias and so on. Then, thanks to other companies, such as Pascual©, Leche RAM©, Asturiana©, or whatever they want to call themselves, which bought their milk because they were adhered to the whole European Union issue, it has been a breath of fresh air for them and they have been able to move forward. Okay, in counterpoint, the negative part: "you have to “put up with and swallow” with the conditions that the European Union puts on you", everything has its pros and cons, nothing is perfect.

ESFG2_F4: But they accepted ( )

ESFG2_F3: Exactly, if you accept it, it is because in some way it compensates you. If it didn't compensate you, you wouldn't accept it.

M: Okay, can anyone think of any other disadvantages that participating in the European Union has had for Spain?

ESFG2_F5: I, it's just that I don't...

ESFG2_F4: Yes.

ESFG2_F5: Regarding what the colleague commented before [referring to ESFG2_M1], that there are countries that have better opportunities or something like that, what I believe is that, as an organization, the European Union tries to achieve a balance among all. And, sometimes, that balance means giving more to some than to others, or because we have to give more to those who need it more. In other words, equity. So, this, seen from the point of view of a country that does not receive this economic aid because it does not need it, can be seen in a selfish way as: "hey, I am part of the European Union and I am not receiving". So, as a disadvantage, if we were talking about Spain… Maybe there are other countries that have... let's see, I don't think this is the case, but, to speak of a disadvantage. And then also, the political and economic control of Spain, which in the end is like a chain. We do not have total control, since we belong to a group where decisions are taken in which we have participated or we have accepted that we are part of it, although there are things in which we do not agree: aids, for example. This is what I think is a disadvantage: just as you accept some things, there are other things in which you may not agree.

M: I don't know if ESFG2_F4 wanted to say something?

ESFG2_F4: I was thinking a little bit the same thing. In the comparative grievance, surely other countries think, contrary to what ESFG2_M1 says-

ESFG2_M1: -[laughs]

ESFG2_F4: -No, excuse me, I am saying this because of the comment you made. Surely when they say that "in Spain we have to be rescued" and so on, I'm not saying that’s not the case, but I think there is, above all, a very bad management of our economy, apart from other little things [making a gesture of corruption]. But I don't know if it is… Denmark? It is not Norway or Sweden, it has to be Denmark… which have a much higher internal debt than ours in Spain. They earn much more money, but I think that 60% of their salaries go directly to taxes. It is an outrage. And, well, maybe they will say: "we have a huge debt, but here we do not...", that is to say, they do not come to ask for money while the Mediterranean countries, I understand: Portugal, Spain, Greece, are always crying. It is, a little bit, how it seems from the outside. If I were German or British {I’d think}: “they like to do like this” [making a gesture extending the hand]... "they are lazy and have little initiative and entrepreneurial culture, or initiative". And, in addition, the Spanish bureaucracy that hinders everything. I mean, it is a concatenation of “shitty things” (OL: “putadillas”)... [she looks at the recorders] well, not of "shitty things" [laughs], of circumstances. I think that other countries must have grudge against us, no wonder they come to get all the sun and turn red like a crab: it's the only thing they can take with them from us.

M: Well, now I am going to present you with a scenario: imagine for a moment that there is a major natural disaster in Europe, for example, an earthquake, a flood, forest wildfires, and there is a country in the European Union that is badly affected. How do you think the European Union should act in this scenario?

ESFG2_M2: Helping, obviously.

ESFG2_M1: From my point of view-

M: Sorry, ESFG2_M1. [Addressing ESFG2_M2] More or less in what kind of help are you thinking?

ESFG2_M2: Well, it depends on the catastrophe. I imagine that, if they are members, they are united for something, I would say [laughs]. And then, of course... I don't know, it will depend on the catastrophe, whatever it is and everything.

M: The rest?

ESFG2_F3: I think the same. Helping. Requesting that each country, based on their possibilities or the ratios they have established within the European Union, provide help, whether economic, human, Red Cross, bringing dogs to help, whatever. The things that are usually done in these cases.

ESFG2_F4: Me too.

ESFG2_F5: I think it is what is expected, what less?

ESFG2_M1: I think that in the case of La Palma, where there has been a volcano, the aid that has arrived there is minimal, compared to other aid that is dedicated, for example, to those who come from abroad or to other things, which are given much more aid than what has been given to the people of La Palma, who have practically been abandoned there. In one place they have left them a sports center to sleep in and little else.

ESFG2_F4: But that has been our government, not Europe, right?

ESFG2_M1: Yes, but Europe can get in there to help, and well....

ESFG2_F5: Management, the problem is management.

ESFG2_F3: Here the problem would be the management of the Spanish government, which has not moved sufficiently at the European level to request this aid.

ESFG2_M1: He {the Government} only went to have his picture taken and little else.

ESFG2_F4: But what if we were not Europeans, even if there is a volcano in La Palma and an eruption, with Europe or without Europe, I say that the first interested parties, because it happens to us, would be to roll up their sleeves and get to work. And if you then get help from outside, even better.

ESFG2_F3: As in the catastrophe in Haiti, and we are not talking about the European Union, Spain flew to Haiti with a lot of troops and aid, both in terms of food and clothing, as well as dogs to help locate. I don't know, I mean, in any case, it is always a little bit what is expected from a country. We're all on the same planet.

ESFG2_F5: Indeed.

M: And how do you think this aid should be distributed? Do you think that some countries should contribute more than others, or what should it depend on?

ESFG2_M1: Good question.

ESFG2_F5: I think it depends on how each country is doing economically. We cannot ask the same from one country as from another.

ESFG2_F4: But that is a bit ambiguous, because, as I said before, it seems that the tendency, or the Spanish idiosyncrasy, is a bit... Maybe its the climate, the culture or a lot of things, but... if we do not make the effort to generate money, why do they have to?… another country that maybe puts a lot of effort, another country that puts a lot of effort.... In the Second World War, I imagine in Germany, they all did like this [making a working gesture] and they rebuilt it. In Spain, they bombed us, and we are still in ruins forty years later. Of course, it is a mentality. If I were a German I would say: "come on, try to move your ass a little bit".

ESFG2_M1: Well, to help it rebuild they went from a lot of countries to Germany.

ESFG2_F4: Yes, but they themselves... it was their manual work. That is, fundamentally they do it like that [repeats the working gesture]. And I understand that it is something cultural, just as we have other qualities. I think that Spain, in that sense, in the end, right and left, we don't get along with each other. If we have to clear the table, we start with: "because you think this, I think that", and the table is never cleared.- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F5: -That's the problem, that's the problem,- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -And the thing is to clear the table and then we talk about the government. That's how I see it.

ESFG2_F3: Yes, I don't understand the origin very well, but it is true that, I don't know why, Spaniards, in particular, find it very difficult to go all together. We are very... I don't know how to say it... each one of us goes by itself- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F5: -You only have to look at the Congress, the people who represent us disrespect each other, being from any party. How do you want something like that to represent you? How do you want to feel Spanish or national if the people who represent you do not really represent you?- (overlapping)

ESFG2_M1: -It embarrasses you.

ESFG2_F3: A demonstration is called and nobody comes out; Real Madrid wins the cup and everybody is in the streets. Do you understand? For that there is union, for the rest not so much. That's how I see it, and it makes me very sad, sincerely.

[00:30:40]

M: And, going back to the natural disaster scenario question: if it happened in Spain, for example, how would you expect the European Union to react?

ESFG2_M1: Well, I think there are... I don't know if I understand correctly, if I'm not mistaken, that the European Union has some funds that can be used to help when there are disasters or something similar, both outside the European Union and within the European Union. I do not know how much each country pays to that fund for disasters, but I suppose that everything will come from there. And then I imagine that each country, depending on what it has and can help, if they decide to go with firefighters to help or decide to go with dogs, or whatever, to rescue people, then welcome.

ESFG2_F5: Of course. In that case, in relation to what you were saying before [referring to ESFG2_F4]... you were saying "the image they have of Spain is that of the relaxed person, the one who does not do anything". In the case of a natural disaster, everyone has to come together and contribute what they can. I mean, a country- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -No, no, no, sorry, I did not mean the opposite. But I understand that, if what he [referring to the moderator] asked about happens to us here, the first thing is to put everything we can, and of course then go and help everywhere else, ask for as much help as possible... come on, I think it is our obligation, because it is in our interest.

ESFG2_F5: Yes, and with respect to the help we would expect, I think a little bit like what ESFG2_M1 said: that there will be a fund where countries will contribute so that, if it exists or if a case like that occurs, the country can be rescued in some way.

ESFG2_F4: But, are they audited? I don't know, are they audited? But in a serious way, the aid that we receive in Spain from- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F5: -What do you mean by audited?

ESFG2_F4: Well, if they keep an exhaustive control of what is being done with the money- (overlapping)

ESFG2_M1: -No, I’m sure it isn’t

ESFG2_F4: I have the feeling that it cannot be. And what I don't understand is why Europe also allows that.

ESFG2_F5: On whom does the control of aid depend here? Well, that's it.

ESFG2_M1: In fact, last time they said that, because the budgets were not clear, Europe did not give more aid to Spain.

ESFG2_F4: That's what I was trying to remember, that's why I find it strange that, on the one hand, they allow corruption, but on the other hand they don't put means in place either.

ESFG2_F5: But it probably exists {the funds}.

ESFG2_M1: Europe cannot interfere in what each country does either. In other words, each country...- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F5: -Well, to a certain extent- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -If I lend you money. ESFG2_M6, and you tell me: "lend me three thousand euros because my car, the engine, has broken down", and I tell you: "sure, sure, it's very important for you the car, for work or whatever", and then I find out that you have gone to Cancun, I would feel cheated. Because, maybe I lend you the money but you told me it was for something specific- (overlapping).

M: -But in this scenario, do you think that the European Union would have any responsibility to act in such a scenario, in which a disaster happened to Spain?

ESFG2_F5: Yes, yes.

ESFG2_F4: Sure.

ESFG2_F3: I think so.

ESFG2_M1: Yes, of course.

ESFG2_F5: Responsibility and liability as part of the European Union.

ESFG2_M1: Because it is also part of their welfare. If something happens in Spain or in any other country, it can jeopardize European security.

ESFG2_F4: You’re right, man! Franco said it: "the last stronghold...", well he said it about other things, but it is true that where we are, Portugal and Spain are convenient for them, because of their proximity to Africa, in their security issues. Even if only thinking selfishly.

M: Well, now I am going to present you with a slightly different scenario. If a financial crisis like the one that happened in 2008 happened again, and some countries were negatively affected, not Spain, do you think that Spain...? How do you think Spain would have to act in that case?

ESFG2_F5: Suffering the crisis in Spain?

M: No. No. If another EU country suffered the crisis and Spain did not, how do you think Spain would have to act in that situation?

ESFG2_M2: Has Spain been helped in crisis?

ESFG2_F5: Yes, in 2008.

ESFG2_M1: I believe that solidarity should never be lacking. Regardless of whether the other person helps you or doesn't help you or stops helping you-.

ESFG2_F5: -Yes.

ESFG2_M1: If you have enough money, and on top of that you are doing well, I think solidarity has to be something that... Let's say, you don't have to think about it. You just say: "this one needs...". It is like those who are drowning in the sea {referring to migrants}: first, rescue them. Then you will see if you return them, how you return them, or if they stay, in what conditions they stay and so on. But first... you can't let a child drown. And look to see why he has come, and look at the causes so that there are no more deaths in the water. So, solidarity has to be, I think, the main thing of the human being. You cannot... The neighbor, if something happens to him, if his kitchen catches fire, well, you have to go up and help him, regardless of whether you think "he might go to my house…". No, no. Help him. If you have to help, you help him

(short pause)

M: The rest?

ESFG2_F3: Yes, I also think there has to be solidarity. And if they have helped us when we were in the crisis and the rest of the countries have done their bit to help us, then, undoubtedly, it is our turn to do the same.

ESFG2_F4: Yes, that’s it.

M: And do you think it would change anything, or would it depend in any way on which country is most affected?

ESFG2_F4: Yes.

M: In what sense?

ESFG2_F5: I don't think so.

ESFG2_M2: [Addressing the moderator] What was that?

M: Would it depend on the country that is affected on how Spain would have to act?

ESFG2_F4: So, you are asking us... That's what we were commenting. That it is so obvious: should help. But you are asking it to five people that we are just commenting. Though, at the economic and political level they don't measure things, unfortunately, by what we are commenting on. They are going to look at the profit they can make because they are only going to help you if they are going to get something. So yes, they may have more sympathy, but the world is pragmatic and capitalist. Here, the "help"... We help each other more, In my believe, among the citizens that...- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F5: -It is a "today for you, tomorrow for me".

ESFG2_F4: Yes, they would help, but depending on the country.- (overlapping)

ESFG2_M1: -They would help if ( )

ESFG2_F4: -No, that's why. But if it were Germany, they would give them a wave, they would say everything to it. But if it were Portugal or Greece, they have nothing to give us. Maybe, right? Maybe I am wrong.

ESFG2_F3: No, and besides, any bailout, when you get bailed out, then you have to pay it back. There is an interest- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -But then they end up condemning you!- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F3: -Exactly, then they talk about debt forgiveness {debt relief} and so on. But well, you have to look at the details. Are aids that are given to you but that you also have to pay back, either by helping or giving money.

M: If Spain were to help other countries in a hypothetical crisis, should Spain impose conditions on those countries?

ESFG2_F3: Well, I imagine it would be the same as the others.

ESFG2_F4: I imagine that it also depends on what has happened. Because if it was a natural catastrophe it is different than if there has been an economic problem because the economy of that country has, I don't know... they have been... inflation in the currency... I don't know, other kind of circumstances that maybe: "well, no worries”. But we have to redirect this situation so that it does not happen again, otherwise it would be like a déjà vu.

MA: And now, if Spain were the one affected by the crisis and had to be helped: would it be convenient, would we see it as good if this help came with restrictions?

ESFG2_F4: {It should come} With many. In Spain, in particular, I think, from the heart, it’s like children: you give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

ESFG2_F5: Yes.

ESFG2_F4: So, it seems that it is that picaresque thing, which is so deep in the DNA. I don't know how to say. But if I were a non-Spanish European, if I have to put money to Spain, I would want to know every penny. Otherwise, they go to Marbella, they buy an apartment.-

ESFG2_F5: -But we grew up like that, seeing that.

ESFG2_F4: No, but it's like ( )... It's people... I don't know.

ESFG2_F5: It says very bad things about us, but it is true. [Different gestures among the participants] No?! It's just that...-

ESFG2_F4: -I don't like to say it; I wish I could say the opposite- (overlapping)

ESFG2_ F4: -Sure, it speaks very badly because of the stereotype of the Spaniard, but what it denotes most in Spain is corruption. So, of course. (short pause) this does not represent everyone, I also have to say it, this does not represent everyone.

[00:40:12]

M: The rest?

ESFG2_M2: I think so, yes. It is complicated.

(long pause)

M: Well, and now I am going to propose a third scenario. First, considering that in Europe there are inequalities between countries and there are also inequalities within each country, do you think that the European Union should have a common scheme to address inequality?

ESFG2_F5: It doesn't have it already? [laughs]

M: I’m asking you if it should [laughs].

ESFG2_F5: But I imagine that… well, this is a very local vision, isn't it? There has to be people who have thought about it already. I mean. I imagine it already exists, right?

ESFG2_F4: But this, for example, what we are doing today is like the saying that goes: "if you give a man a fish, he will eat today, but if you give him a rod and teach him, he will always eat". Well, this type of programs, or what we are doing here can balance in sense it is a real learning of how to improve, well, in this case, Spain. And it is good that each country, with its own little problems and issues, learns how to make the most of it. Of money, of everything.

(short pause)

M: What do the rest think?

(short pause)

ESFG2_F4: ESFG2_M2, you dissent! [laughs]

ESFG2_M2: [Laughter] No, I don't disagree. What you were saying before [addressing ESFG2_F4], you talked about... (short pause) what did you talk about? [laughs] No, about teaching them to fish, right? [his mask is lowered a little] (short pause) [laughs]

ESFG2_F3: -[speaking very softly to ESFG2_M2] pull up your mask please.

ESFG2_M2: [Pulls up his mask] Sorry, these masks [laughs]. You are a little bit against aid, can it be [addressing ESFG2_F4]? That, for what we were talking about here... I forgot the word...- [laughs].

ESFG2_F3: -Inequalities.

ESFG2_M2: -That is, inequalities

ESFG2_F4: Well, I mean we should work on them. She [referring to ESFG2_F5] has asked if there are already such aids.

ESFG2_F5: But I imagine... I mean, I hope so- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -We take them for granted, right?

ESFG2_M2: Okay, I've understood you better now, okay- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F5: -I have not been informed, but I imagine that... It seems something basic to me. Because, as a union, there must be an economic study of each country: economically, politically... where I imagine that the European Union must take all this into account, right? The money of each country, foreign relations, trade. Well, in terms of inequalities, speaking of union, with that specific word, which is union, where there has to be a balance between the member countries. Well, in order to achieve that balance, we have to contribute to avoid inequalities. Right? I do not know.

ESFG2_F4: But is it really in the interest of other countries, the more economically powerful countries, that we do as well as they do? Maybe not, I don't know. I mean, just enough, just enough help to keep you afloat, but don't excel too much -

ESFG2_F5: But that is an individualistic and selfish thinking. I mean- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -Well, that’s money-

ESFG2_F5: -Sure, but depending on the perception you have as the European Union.

ESFG2_F4: No, no, I am just asking, I don't know. I start thinking, and my mind wanders to evil lands instead of just to good wishes, and I wonder: "sure, sure, inequality, solidarity, and all that is very good, but our world doesn’t work like that". It's not like that on a day-to-day basis, nor was it before the European Union. Then, always someone, in order to do very well in a capitalist society, someone has to be screwed so that the other goes up. Maybe they love the fact that we are poor, so that they can come, well, to tourism, to the beach, to the sangria, and all what we have, as we are of good conforming and we do not have many aspirations and personal ambitions, nor companies and so on, we accept any crap. And it suits them very well, to retire and then come here to bask in the sun. I don't know.

ESFG2_F5: I have a very positive vision, but I do not believe that countries that are economically better off are better off than countries that are not so well off, when in fact they will have a vision as a European Union against other countries that are not in the European Union, which may be the ones that have the vision of: "those people can do badly, they are not from the European Union"

ESFG2_F4: But that's like in families. We all love our families, but then there are differences between cousins, brothers, uncles, aunts, fathers. There are frictions. I mean, it's just an assumption, I don't really know.

ESFG2_F5: Sure, there must be, of course.

ESFG2_M1: Because there is a two-speed Europe. I think it {the EU} should have a scheme, a plan, so that there are not as she says [referring to a participant]: that there are not many inequalities, and to be able to function and to pull the project of the European Union. Because if not, it goes down the drain. But what I am seeing is that they do not carry it out, or they cannot, or they do not want to, and we are like this: some richer and others poorer.

MA: And in what areas should there be this, shall we say, common scheme?

ESFG2_F5: What do you mean by common scheme?

MA: For example, to reduce unemployment. In what areas should it exist?

ESFG2_F5: To reduce inequalities?

MA: Yes.

ESFG2_M1: Yes, I think so. Although I also see it as difficult because Europe should not interfere in the sovereignty of European countries. Again, one of the things that Europe is often blamed for is that Spain, for example, has lost its sovereignty and it is Brussels that rules in Europe and tells you what to do and what not to do. But I do believe that there has to be a plan, a little bit generalized, to help in certain cases. Yes, for example, to produce more employment, or to reduce poverty.

ESFG2_F5: But that exists, all of that exists already-

ESFG2_F4: -There are things, things like... at least the bureaucracy in Spain is killer. Of course, even if you have a good idea and a little bit of money saved, this is not like in the United States where you wake up one morning inspired and you can set up a company in a matter of two hours. Here, not even with the money or anything. Come on, you can spend months to set up a small business. Maybe Spanish bureaucracy should start... We are in the 21st century, and in 2022 we are still repeating patterns that were outdated even in Franco's time. Well, maybe we are not very productive because we have so much bureaucracy, so many notaries, so many papers, so many figures to represent, who do not represent anything, who take the money away, who delay.

ESFG2_F5: But that does not depend on Europe.

ESFG2_F4: No, no, of course, not that either. I also don't want daddy Europe to be telling me how to live. I mean, we are also… when you are an adult, the thing is to take individual responsibility as well. And neither would I like, as he says [referring to ESFG2_M1], that they come from outside to tell you... each one of us has our idiosyncrasy, our culture, and maybe we want to change some things and not others.

ESFG2_F5: Yes, but for example... I agree, but there are common things, such as the concern about unemployment or climate change, for example, which is common to all countries and to everything, and this must be something common and based on guidelines that all member countries of the European Union must follow and achieve these objectives. These are not objectives that are set by each country, but global objectives. And that is what helps or favors being part of the European Union. So yes, maybe at an individual level or at an internal level as a country we can manage ourselves in that aspect, but it will always be better if we are regulated in some way. I believe.

M: Do the rest agree with what ESFG2_F5 says?

ESFG2_M1: I do not. I do not see globalism as something positive, I even see it as something negative. Globalism is imposing a series of ways of life, a series of such things, which is not... I am seeing it with the pandemic and I see that a lot of help is given to the cafés, but the gyms are not helped, neither are the discos... A lot of things.

ESFG2_F5: But that level of support depends on...-

ESFG2_F4: -Income level.

ESFG2_F5: The level of income and how that income is distributed. That is what is being decided here. In other words, I mean, at the end what we are talking about is the management of this investment, which...-

ESFG2_M1: -No, it is not only the management, but they tell you "there has to be a gym, a separation between one and the other, of I don't know how many meters, and so", and to the bars they tell them "there is no need to have so much space, and so...".-

ESFG2_F5: -And that depends on who? On the European guidelines?

ESFG2_M1: Well, I don't know who that depends on, whether it depends on the State, the Autonomous Community, or who it depends on.-

ESFG2_F5: -It depends on each Autonomous Community, on who is governing at the time, and on how well it suits the ruling person that you have your business in that way. That's what I mean, that we don't... I think that many times it is clear that we don't want to lose the right to choose or to decide where we want to invest things.-

[00:50:45]

ESFG2_M1: -Yes, because, for example, the European Union is imposing, they want to impose, the COVID passport, they want to make vaccination compulsory, which seems to me a nonsense... Just like the COVID passport, another nonsense.

ESFG2_F5: But that is so... I don't think it is wrong, for instance. There will be people who think so, and there will be people who... In the world we cannot all agree because each person has an opinion, and all of them are respectable-

ESFG2_M1: -Yes, but not to impose. To me, imposing seems to be a dictatorship.

ESFG2_F5: No, man-

ESFG2_M1: -Being told "that you have to get vaccinated just because… just because… because I say so, and that's it". -

ESFG2_F5: -If you're moving at the European level and the other country you're going to says so-

ESFG2_M1: -Even if you don't move, they ask it to enter the bar next door.-

ESFG2_F5: -Then don't move. So don't move and you won't need a passport, that's it. Solved, neither for you nor for me, it's all good.

ESFG2_F4: But what you two are saying [referring to ESFG2_F4 and ESFG2_M1] with the same example and what we are doing this afternoon is the same. I understand that what we’re doing in tiny, they {research project} will do in Brussels, with a lot of representations, and everybody has the same idea of doing good and so on. But how it is approached according to the mentality of each country and so on, that is the heart of the matter.-

ESFG2_F5: -Yes, everyone sees it differently.-

ESFG2_F4: -Sure. So, we want the same solution, to have water to drink. But how, considering my culture and so on, it is achieved versus yours. I understand that must be the discrepancies and the friction that... Sure, because we are not the same, for better and worse.

ESFG2_F3: That is the heart of the matter.

M: And going back to the example raised by the MA with unemployment, for instance, do you think that the European Union should have common scheme to deal with unemployment at the European level?

ESFG2_F5: Well, it does already, doesn't it? ESFG2_F3 mentioned before about the financing in training to favor... to favor employment and integration into labor market. In fact, almost all the courses or training that help the labor insertion for unemployed people are financed with European funds. I believe they are

ESFG2_M1: What I notice is that many of these aids for labor market insertion help to keep unemployed people active, doing something, but they do not really solve the employment problem. Of all the people I know who have been in unemployment courses, very few have actually found a job after that course. Very few people. Maybe they have obtained something... and those who have obtained employment, maybe they have obtained it in a different field. In other words, it has nothing to do with the course. So I think to myself: "well, what was the course for ( ), just to entertain me? And by being there in the course I don't count as unemployed for the State?"- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F5: -Yes, you do, yes, you do.-

ESFG2_F4: -ESFG2_M1, it is like a surplus then. They give the funds and of course, either you spend it, or else next year you don't have the line item with the same amount. So, they spend the money on ( ).

ESFG2_F5: I don’t think, really, that-

ESFG2_F4: -Of course, some courses do not, but many others do-.

ESFG2_F5: -I don't think it is a waste of money to invest in culture and training. Simply put.

ESFG2_F4: No, culture and training is never an expense, but I have seen courses that are embarrassing. Because, unless you are functionally illiterate, not even knowing how to write your name correctly or do a sum is practically an offense to your cognitive level.

ESFG2_F5: Well, there's a little bit of everything, isn't there? I mean, as we are all different- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -And they promote them like if that's how you're going to get a job, and that's not how you get a job. Only if you're lucky. But you've taking a course and they're making you take the course, but the people at the academy, the academy, they are earning money for giving your training. You're not... I mean, it's a side benefit for them. If you learn something, that's an extra.

ESFG2_F5: I do not agree.

ESFG2_M1: I do.

M: And well, going back to the question, do you think then that the European Union should support, have a common policy on unemployment?

ESFG2_M1: Well, not as much as a common policy. But it is necessary to orientate, or to have something. Because it cannot be left to each one to go by... I mean, I see it as a failure that there are a lot of unemployed people in the European Union.

ESFG2_F3: I think that in principle EU already has something in this regard. I have seen recently, for example, and I’m not thinking about courses for undergraduates, nor about courses for masters, which we always think that there are the good deals at European level- (overlapping).

ESFG2_F4: -No, no, I was talking about basic courses.-

ESFG2_F3: -No, no, I mean, in general we often think that these types of courses and grants offered by the European Union are for people who already have a postgraduate degree, when you have been to university, when you have a master's degree, two, or three, whatever you have been able to do, and it is not necessarily so. Recently, looking around, I have curiously seen, for example, offers in Germany, I think it was, to study FP2 as an electrician. We are not talking about doctors, surgeons or engineers, we are talking about electricians. That is like a vocational training, like here in Spain, of 2 years, which offers training in a company with the possibility of staying later in Germany. What is required? A level of German, not high, but moderately basic, so that you can understand the classes.

ESFG2_F5: They also pay for it so that you can study.

ESFG2_F3: Yes, and you get paid, that's another one. I was almost forgetting about it. I didn't know it, for example. And as I go on the Internet and start looking for things and so on, you realize that there are many more things than you really imagine at the European level. What's the problem, then? Well, what we were talking about. That, with the Spanish character, if it is already difficult for us to speak English, or we want to speak Spanish more than English, because we are embarrassed; imagine speaking German, which is much more complicated. And then that is another one, to leave Spain. Because, like in the famous movie "Pepe vente para Alemania" {“Pepe, come to Germany”}, which is about forty years ago, but speaks of a reality. And I see that we have made very little progress in this area. But I see that there are aids.

ESFG2_F4: Geographic mobility in Spain is terrible. Nobody leaves their town, even if you don't have a job, even if you die of disgust, you get help from your cousins, your friends, your whatever. People don't move their asses.- (overlapping)

ESFG2_M1: -[addressing ESFG2_F4] I don't see that as a bad thing- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -In the 2008 crisis, everyone should have left, given the opportunity, or a lot of people; but here we are.

ESFG2_F3: The new generations are being educated differently. We already have bilingual schools that we didn't have a few years ago. My nieces, who are already studying, are very young and are studying bilingually. In some subjects, natural sciences, and so. Whether they like English or not: "Aunt, I don't like English, they give me natural sciences in English", "well, this way you’ll learn English", because otherwise, no, no. So, I think that Europe is doing programs and things. Besides, the advertisements clearly states it: "for all member countries". Then it is up to you to decide: "I am going to learn German, take the basic course and opt for this next year".

M: Sorry, ESFG2_F5, you wanted to say something...

ESFG2_F5: What I wanted to say is that I think that this vision, fortunately, has changed. And I think that having a vision in which we feel part of the European Union makes us, precisely, have that mobility and see those opportunities that if we were not in that position, we would not see. I am 32 years old and I know... Anyone who bothers a little to get informed, and they inform you, beginning in the employment office, of all the trainings, of all the things you can do. But of course, you have to inform yourself. Yes, it is hard for us to inform ourselves, it is hard for us to go out, it is hard for us to see things in a different way… Of course it's hard for us, because it's the new thing, it's the novelty, like when the Euro changed. I have lived in pesetas too, but I am more accustomed to the Euro. It is clear that my vision will not be the same as that of my parents and grandparents, it will not be the same.

ESFG2_F4: But without such a big age difference, I was born in '77, I realize that of all my friends, schoolmates and colleagues, I am the only person who has worked abroad in two different countries. And the rest, whether they were doing well or not, did not move from Spain or even within Spain: if he is from Madrid, he is from Madrid, if he is from Granada, he is from Granada. Come on, unless you have no choice. I see North Americans, which is 40 times Spain, they move. If you get a job in another place, you move there. I mean, here: "I don't have a job, but I don't move". It must be a cultural thing that is changing, and I'm glad.

ESFG2_F5: But at least you have the possibility, before you didn't have that possibility.

ESFG2_M1: But you don't have to change if you don't want to.

[01:00:15]

ESFG2_F5: But you are condemning yourself to failure.

ESFG2_M1: I also see mobility as often losing the area's own identity.

ESFG2_F5: Man, I have gone abroad and I have not lost any identity whatsoever. The only thing I have done is to acquire knowledge and enrich myself.

ESFG2_M1: - Yes, but if tomorrow the people from Madrid leave, because there is no work, everyone will leave, in the end Madrid will stay…- (overlapping).

M: -Well, and asking the question in another way: if in a country of the European Union there was a high unemployment rate, do you think that the European Union should support that country in some way or is it a responsibility of each country?

ESFG2_F4: At this point, if it can really affect the economy, they have to support them... if they don't know how to do it, then put it easy: "A, B, C, and this is what you have to follow". I am a little bit square for that.

ESFG2_F3: I think we are part of the European Union and, regardless of how we are and the policies we have in each country, it's like when you are inside a club, really. So, they are supposed to help you. You belong to that club for whatever you need, right? So, if you need help to study, then for studies; if you need help make ends meet every month, then for the making ends meet every month. For whatever. I see it like this. You are part of a club called European Union and we all help each other in the ways we have said before, in the possibilities that each country can.

M: The rest?

ESFG2_M1: Yes, I think more or less the same.

ESFG2_M2: The same. You have disagreed a little bit, haven't you? [addressing ESFG2_F3 and ESFG2_F4] Or did you think the same?

ESFG2_F4: Well, I said that if somebody comes... If I remember correctly, you said [addressing the moderator] a problem of...-

M: -With very high unemployment in a country.

ESFG2_F4: With very high unemployment. Maybe there are times that... Okay, for instance at this table, if we can't think of anything, maybe someone from outside that comes and sees it with a perspective... Well, not someone but a group from the European Community, can give us a hand if it's very...

ESFG2_F5: I don't know if the funds that are allocated to a country are already catalogued for what they are for, in other words, where they are going. I don't know. I think that money is given and that distribution is managed within that country. That is to say, if that country is doing badly in terms of employment, then "lets allocate X amount to improve employment". But I do not believe that it depends... I mean, I do not want to believe that it depends on something outside our country, as we are the ones who are suffering this situation. In other words, I believe that it has to be generated, X amount of money has to be allocated, and within the country itself to be decided where the money should be directed. And then, yes, as that money is given to us, we should justify what it has been spent on.

ESFG2_F4: I see that here we talk all about money and in the end the feeling is that the European Economic Community, Europe, is like an abstract concept that everyone understands it as they want to. It is the same as believing in God. But, here, something tangible, we know that there is aid and so on. I know those aids exist, but I have not seen them. It's like in Cuarto Milenio, they are talking about "I know there are ( ) {probably quoting some enigmatic theme}, but I haven't seen them" [laughs]- (overlapping).

ESFG2_F5: -You do see them.

ESFG2_F4: No, I have not. You do have [addressing ESFG2_F5], as you said you've gone to Europe and enjoyed things that I haven't seen. I know they exist-

ESFG2_F5: -But even being here.-

ESFG2_M1: -I know that there are European policies, for example, to help women, or to impose, for example, LGTBI policies. Just as it helps to impose LGTBI policies that me, for example, do not agree very much, but it can also help to create more employment. I don't see that as bad. And that there would be- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -No, I was not talking about employment, I was talking in general, about the economic resources that Spain receives for being a member of Europe. For me it is always a bit abstract: "We have received money for the volcano; we have received money for I don't know what". But I don't see that in my day to day life...- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F5: -This study is funded by Europe- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -like when you get some money and you say "great, now I'm going to fix my house", and then you come to my house and it's clean, nice, painted...-

ESFG2_F5: -ESFG2_F4, this study, this focus group is funded by Europe.

M: Well, actually, for the record, it is funded by the German Ministry of Science and Education.

ESFG2_F5: Well, but probably there is also something there?

ESFG2_F4: Guten…. Bundes... {trying to pronounce Bundesministeriu in German} [laughs].

ESFG2_F5: Sure, and you are living it here, you can appreciate it here.

ESFG2_F4: Sure, but it is something minimal. I am talking about something that is noticeable. Something like money arriving to the Community of Madrid that you could say "Oh my God! How it is noticeable that in two years they have painted façades, they have done this, and so and so"...-

ESFG2_F5: -The construction plans!-

ESFG2_M1: -Many roads have been made with EU money. Not everything is as bad as it is painted- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -I am not saying no, that it is not used. I am saying that I do not know it.

ESFG2_F3: I, for example, something that comes to my mind right now, that just occurred to me, is Great Britain, for example, the United Kingdom... A lot of years ago they did not have a good public health system, they needed nurses, there was no way to train all the personnel they wanted, and through the European Union they looked for nurses... and Spaniards, doctors, Spanish nurses in the United Kingdom there are [making a gesture of great quantity], lots of them. In addition, they are in demand because they are very well trained and because in Spain there is very good medicine, I mean, medical studies and so on. So, for me, this is already a policy of the European Union that promotes the fight against unemployment. This has benefited Spain. The number of nurses who were unemployed here because they had no way of accessing a hospital to work, because here everything is through competitive examinations and so on, and there are not as many positions as, perhaps, we really need. And they got the opportunity in the UK, and they went to the UK.-

ESFG2_F5: And to Germany too. I have friends who went to Germany and stayed there for a few years.

ESFG2_F3: So, well... They had to leave their... they had to emigrate and learn a language. Yes. And many were leaving without being fluent in English. That's true. But today they are very happy they made that decision.

ESFG2_M2: Sorry, I wanted to know how much more time we have left....

M: -It's 20:30... so, about fifteen minutes more.

ESFG2_M2: Okay [hesitant gesture]

M: But if you need to retire early, that's okay. Though, it's better if you stay [laughs]

ESFG2_M2: Okay [laughs], fifteen minutes.

M: Well, and one more question related to this: do you think that Spain should contribute to reduce unemployment in other European Union countries that have more unemployment than Spain?

ESFG2_F5: I'm sorry, you said that last part so quickly.

M: Sorry, do you think Spain should contribute to reducing unemployment in other European Union countries that have more unemployment than Spain?

ESFG2_F4: Which countries have higher unemployment than Spain?

ESFG2_M1: Greece, for example.

ESFG2_F4: And what do we give them, advice? We, who are second from the bottom? We have the two provinces with the highest unemployment in Europe.

ESFG2_M1: I believe that if all of Europe agrees to give money to reduce unemployment, then I believe that Spain should not keep behind and say "No, I'll pass on Europe".

ESFG2_F4: No, I didn't say that. I am saying that, if you don't know how to cover yours, how am I going to go to your house to give you what I don't have at home?

ESFG2_F3: Indeed, I think like her in that sense. When we have solved the problems we have regarding unemployment and the number of young people we have who have to leave Spain because we do not have enough for them here... and those of us who are not so young, and I include myself, I am unemployed. Well, when we have solved that, then it is true that we can try to help the others.-

ESFG2_F4: -I don't mean economically, I mean that I don't know what kind of advice, even if it were just words, we are going to be able to give to another country, with other circumstances and other mentalities and so on, if we ourselves don't even know how to solve our own problem.-

ESFG2_F5: -Man, we can tell them what not to do. [laughs] "Don't do this, it has already happened to me" [laughs].

ESFG2_M2: Excuse me, I have to go.

M: Okay, don't worry, thanks for coming. I'll write you later.

ESFG2_M2: Pleasure to everyone, guys, girls.

[several respond and say goodbye]

MA: Okay, and to finish with this, we continue with the question of whether Spain should or should not contribute. We have talked before that we are not in a position to give advice, but if it were an economic contribution and this entailed a cost for Spain, should it still contribute?

ESFG2_F4: Yes.

ESFG2_M1: I think so.

(long pause)

M: Any reason why?

ESFG2_F5: Because we have to be there [talking with a funny voice] for better or worse [laughs]. Because today it can happen to me, tomorrow it can happen to you, and because we are the European Union.

ESFG2_F4: And I think we have received quite a lot, and we also have very good things to offer. We may not be a world power, but I think Spain does have very remarkable things that many countries, maybe if they knew... Well, you can take the best of each house from anywhere. Talent, intelligence and knowledge, fortunately, there are everywhere.

[01:10:29]

ESFG2_M1: And also selfishly. Because the better Europe does, the better Spain will do. And, for example, if Spain is dedicated to tourism, as it seems to be, the more money the other countries have, the easier it will be for them to spend it in Spain. Then something will come to Spain. So, I believe that also-

ESFG2_F4: -But, ESFG2_M1... I do find it strange because I see that, more or less, we are contemporaries. Tourism, the fact that Spain live off tourism, was promoted by Franco. I mean, here we were isolated and when they came [imitating a high-pitched voice and lengthening the vowels, possibly Franco's] "the Swedes" it was for other reasons. And we, apart from Catalonia and apart from the Basque Country or the north and industrialized {regions}, Andalusia has never had industry. If you do not live on tourism and your sun, what do you live on? Well, it could be on clean renewable energies. We are very idiots, we do not do it, they are taxed, moreover. But that is not a European thing. We also have the right to say how we want our country to be. It is like "Europe, they have made us a country of tourists", and no. I think we have done it ourselves. I think we have done it ourselves.

ESFG2_F3: We have our responsibility.

ESFG2_F4: Of course. And it is also in our interest. Tourism is as legitimate as having a steel plant.

ESFG2_M1: No, but it has been seen during the pandemic that when it has been confinement, we have been locked down for almost 3 months or so, the first three months… Because, as we lived off tourism there have been Autonomous Communities that [makes a gesture of concern] have practically gone to...- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: No, no, I understand you. When you don't diversify and you put all your eggs in one basket, if that basket breaks, the miracle is screwed. But maybe we should, apart from taking advantage of all the potential of tourism and so on, we could set up better and more companies and instead of all the brains and everything going to work in other countries, we could put them here without having to give it all you’ve got just to set up a small company.

ESFG2_F3: We should be more proactive- (overlapping)

ESFG2_M1: -I remember last year I was...- (overlapping)

M: -Pardon me [addressing ESFG2_M1 to give the floor to ESFG2_F3].

ESFG2_F3: We should be more proactive ourselves and not wait for help.

M: You were saying, ESFG2_M1

ESFG2_M1: I was at the FITUR last year or the year before, and what caught my attention was that they announced Spain as an African country.

ESFG2_F4: Oh, really? [expressing surprise]

ESFG2_M1: Yes, at the FITUR fair.

ESFG2_F4: But that was at the Spanish stand?

ESFG2_M1: At Spain's stand, yes, yes, as an African country! Not European country, modern, such as.

ESFG2_F4: Maybe we can stand out, just the opposite. I mean, it can also be tactics of perception, of how you want to sell yourself. "We are the sun, the joy, the sangria, the good weather" and those countries who are cold and have little sunshine can say "Oh, my goodness! That's where I want to retire and spend my money and go on vacation". I don't know. Man, this is not Africa. Well, we’re a cousin-brother: we are very near.

M: Well, and we have talked about natural disasters, inequalities, economic crisis... In what other areas do you think the role of the European Union would be relevant, or is relevant, for Spain?

ESFG2_F5: Totally. Belonging to the European Union makes us, as, I think it does, it prevents a disconnection between {autonomous} communities. In a hypothetical case in which we were not part of the European Union, that disconnection of {autonomous} communities, that independence proclaimed by some {autonomous} communities, could become more effective, and that would disunite the country, and that would be against us.

M: By "communities" you mean "autonomous communities", right?

ESFG2_F4: Yes, yes, yes, at the European level we have a vision of "we belong to this, we are one, together with the rest, but we belong to this", but the moment we stop belonging to something, well this one can be divided into as many as we want, right? I mean, I mean that is an advantage. I don't know if you asked for an advantage or not.

M: Yes, in what other areas is the European Union relevant?

ESFG2_M1: Well, I do not see it as an advantage. In fact, when Spain requested the extradition of Puigdemont to Spain, the European Union ignored it, began to shuffle that “we have to look, that we have to” I don't know what, {while he was} in Germany from one side to the other, and in the end they ignored Spain and he was still there. So, I don't see it that way either. And in fact it’s only they have not had the support of the United States, I think. If they had its support, as happened in Kosovo or thereabouts, they would have become independent {referring to Catalonia}, no doubt about it. They would have become independent and they would have even become part of the European Union. I don't think that the European Union would have left, sooner or later, a member that is inside the European Union outside the European Union. Then, just as they impose on us the quotas of "ETA prisoners must be taken out" that the European Union also put in place.

ESFG2_F4: Sorry, [addressing the moderator] could you repeat that? I don't know if I understood correctly what you were asking.

M: Sure. In what areas, besides those we have already talked about, do you think the role of the European Union is relevant? For Spain

ESFG2_F4: In culture. In fostering culture. Knowledge, education, theater, cinema, arts. Culture. From each part, united, mixed, collaborations... how do you say when...? Sorry, I have a cognitive disability and sometimes I get stuck for words. How do you say when...? Co-productions! Oh, it just came out! [laughs] Co-productions between Germany, Italy, Portugal, India, China... Well, no, not India and China, we are talking about Europe... It was an expression, "the communist China" [laughs]. Everything that promotes culture is knowledge, and knowledge is power. Really. Well, and also work [laughs].

ESFG2_F3: I think the same as her [referring to ESFG2_F4]. I believe that culture is what unites people. The more diversity there is, the richer a society is culturally.

ESFG2_M1: Then how do you explain that the more diversity the richer we are, and more quotas are being placed for Catalan, quotas are placed for Basque, for Galician, so that less and less is spoken and people will say: “no, Spanish is not going to be lost, Spanish is marginalized”? When I see that Spanish is spoken by millions and millions of people and what is actually marginalized is Catalan, Basque and Galician.

ESFG2_F4: You can't compare the number of Catalan speakers with the number of Spanish speakers- (overlapping)

ESFG2_M1: -That is why it should be encouraged and supported so that this language is not stepped on and that it gets increasingly spoken- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -Look, the expressions of my house, if I want to cultivate them, when I have children I can transfer them, but in a family nucleus. I can't expect the rest of Spain or my province... well, or whatever it's called, I was born in 77... so, Autonomous Community... I can't expect everyone to adapt to my mini-circumstance. Well, it's all very well for the Catalans to keep their language, the Basques their language, the Galicians their language, but it's not mine. It's just that it's of no use to me in my daily life. Yes, it is very good that they keep it, but they will be the ones who will be interested in taking care of it, not me.

ESFG2_M1: Yes, yes, yes, yes, but the thing is that, normally, on the part of the Spanish State and on the part of members of (the elite there?) Catalans, it seems that it gets in the way and that Catalan has to be displaced by Spanish and removed.- (overlapping)

[several speak at the same time]

ESFG2_F4: -That seems to me to be a very ignorant option, and very foolish for ( )- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F3: -What do you mean by "getting in the way"? What is getting in the way?

ESFG2_M1: Catalan, many times. Instead of having bilingualism, and that they learn two languages, and that my child learns two languages, or even three: English, Spanish and Catalan and does it perfectly, they are using the languages in a political way as a weapon. And then, some use Catalan, like the {Catalan} nationalists, as a weapon against Spanish, and the others the other way around. And in the end I don't see that as plurality- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F3: -But that...- (overlapping)

M: -Sorry, I am going to intervene ( ), sorry, we should be finishing by now. Last question: How do you think these issues we have talked about before are related to the future of the European Union, or how do you see the future of the European Union in general?

ESFG2_F5: Well, for example, it scares me that the United Kingdom has left the European Union, because I think that, ok it is very good, it is a valid option... by "it is very good" I mean for them... But it is a choice that they have determined. Though, this means that, from ignorance, I think it can affect in so much, in the sense that trade relations between countries will continue to be maintained... That is an asset that the European Union has for the member countries belonging to the European Union... The United Kingdom will continue to maintain it, but nevertheless they are not going to accept what the European Union advises, so to speak, and they are going to make their own decisions. In other words, I believe that this may influence other countries to believe that they can go ahead, and that they want to leave the European Union. And this worries me because, in the end, I think that, if things are being done well now, from my point of view, if this results in countries leaving the European Union, I think it could affect us as a country because, speaking quickly, the more countries, the more opportunities, more money, and more possibilities; the less countries, the less support, less money, less foreign trade relations. I don't know, that's a little bit what... I don't know if I have answered the question well [laughs].

[01:21:28]

M: Yes. The rest?

ESFG2_M1: What I think is that this, the fact that England has left the European Union, shows that the European Union is a failed union. And, for example, the Greeks were now talking about uniting Portugal, Spain, Italy, the poor countries, to confront and show different policies within the European Union. So I believe that the European Union must change completely, because otherwise the number of Eurosceptics and parties that want to leave the European Union is getting very high. So I believe that in the end, if it does not work, they will all end up leaving.

ESFG2_F4: But the difference is that the UK is leaving because it has the Pound. If Pounds would had disappeared because of the Euro, going back to Pounds is not so easy.-

ESFG2_M1: -Yes, yes, yes.-

ESFG2_F4: -And, in addition, they are much more Anglo-Saxon, they are much more agglutinated to those who are beyond the continent, than the rest of Europe.- (overlapping)

ESFG2_M1: -You can leave the European Union and keep the Euro, as far as I understand.

ESFG2_F4: Yes, yes, but...

ESFG2_F5: Yes, and in fact, within the European Union, if I am not mistaken, not all of them use the Euro, right? There are countries that have continued to keep their currency, right? I don't know. Like the United Kingdom. And there must be others I guess.

ESFG2_M1: Poland, right?

[several speak at the same time]

ESFG2_F5: Exactly. In other words, they did not impose the currency exchange as a condition on those people. Even the United Kingdom said- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -It is not easy. I think it was a matter of making it easier- (overlapping).

ESFG2_ F3: -Trade-

ESFG2_ F4: -Exactly, the fact that we all have the same currency.-

ESFG2_M1: -Globalism.

ESFG2_F3: If they would’ve been required to abandon their currency, they might not have been able to join the European Union. -

M: - Well, and going back to the future of the European Union, does anyone else want to comment on how they see the future, in general, of the European Union?

ESFG2_F4: Well, it is encouraging. As long as there are people who sit down, who talk, who share. And I think we are, I don't know, wishing for more, and hoping for more. And, above all, the younger people. This things, with what I have grown up with, they are already very bored about that; they are bored with this nonsense. Life is to enjoy it, to live it, to learn and to have opportunities, not to be there in a languid way. I look forward to it with joy, to tell you the truth.

ESFG2_F3: I also see it as positive, because I believe that right now the European Union is not only made up of countries, but that within those countries there are people from many other countries as well. The French are not only French, the Spanish are not only Spanish, the Italians are not only Italian, but in all countries there are people from other countries. And I believe that all this helps a little bit to be stronger, and helps to grow.

ESFG2_F5: Yes, I agree.

ESFG2_M1: I think the contrary. I see the European Union in the doldrums. I see that there are more and more Eurosceptic parties. For example, you have France, you have Marine Le Penn, who is on the rise and they are already talking about leaving the European Union. So, if those parties, which I do not agree with them, but it have the majority there, and many times the left and the right have had to get together to overthrow it. Well, as soon as it rises, the more it will leave the European Union. And then you have in Hungary ( ), in others it is also very strong. So I see it in a drift.

ESFG2_F4: But is that, excuse me, a consequence of European policies or of the circumstances we are living through, and the economy, and the friction of multicultural coexistence?-

ESFG2_M1: -Yes, but if that malaise is still there, in the end those parties feedback on that malaise and in the end that helps to break up, it does not help to cohere.

ESFG2_F4: But could it be that the excuse is "Europe is the problem" and Europe has not generated that kind of...? I mean, I don't know if Le Pen has missed something in her life- (overlapping).

ESFG2_M1: -Well, the WHO has imposed on France... The WHO has imposed on the whole of Europe a series of...- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F4: -No, I'm just asking, I just don't know.

ESFG2_M1: I don't know, but I think so. The European Union imposes certain measures, for example now in the pandemic, they have imposed the masks or the protocols that had to be done in hospitals, the WHO imposed them through Europe, I think.-

ESFG2_F5: -There is a difference between imposing and organizing or planning. This is just like any job in life. I mean, I mean. In administration jobs, for instance if you work for the Community of Madrid or whoever, the normal thing is that the place where you work is similar to others within the Community of Madrid, within one center than the others, that there is... Well, the same at the European level. That is to say, the best thing is that we all go together and that there are people who think how it can be better for everyone and what is best in certain cases.

ESFG2_M1: So, a medical doctor should be obliged to follow the protocol to a patient if he sees that the patient is not doing well with that protocol? He cannot use another protocol to save the patient's life and has to continue with that protocol?- (overlapping)

ESFG2_F5: -Well, that's as far as we can go- (overlapping)

M: - Well, excuse me, here I have to close...- (overlapping)

ESFG2_M1: -I mean, of course- (overlapping)

M: -Sorry, ESFG2_M1, they are going to kick us out in a few minutes. So, just to close definitively: this is as far as the questionnaire go; the only thing I wanted to know is if anyone has anything left, I don't know, that they thought of during the conversation that they would have liked to say telegraphically.

MA: Yes, things that may not have come out but that they occurred to you.

ESFG2_F3: No, that's it.

ESFG2_F4: Not me, I am left with more questions than answers.

ESFG2_F5: I think that, as a summary, it is the lack of knowledge we have about the European Union, even when we are informed. I mean, even looking for information, there is lack of transparency in many of the plans, initiatives or proposals that come to us through the European Union. I mean, we know that it is a body, we know that we are part of a group, we know these basic things, but I think that, in a conversation based on these very specific questions, there are many things that we do not know how to answer. Even if we are people who are interested in it. So I think there is a lack of knowledge about Europe in our culture and in our society.

ESFG2_F4: They [pointing to the moderator and assistant moderator] [laughs], they will have to call us in for a meeting another day and tell us all the details. We will be the ones asking the questions [laughs].

M: Well, if there is nothing else, before we get kicked out, we turn off the recorders.