M: Okay, it's recording. So, the first thing we're going to do: I wanted you to write down on paper, or mentally, or on the computer, or wherever you want, what are the first three thoughts, or ideas, or whatever, that comes to mind when you hear the expression European Union, or EU, or its derivatives. We have a minute to write these thoughts down and then we'll run through the zoom windows to see your-, what you wrote down. It can be 3, it can be 1, if you don't have 3 it can be 2, it's ok.

(long pause)

M: I don't know if everyone's ready... Okay, so I'm going to go through the windows here and start with PTFG2_M2.

PTFG2_M2: Hmm the three ideas that come to me when I think of the EU are: millions of consumers; attempt at a federation, and post-cold war region.

M: What was the second thought?

PTFG2_M2: Attempt at a federation

M: OK. And the third? Sorry?

PTFG2_M2: Post-cold war region.

M: Briefly, what do you mean by this idea of millions of consumers.

PTFG2_M2: Basically, it's the feeling that I have, because from the moment that it wasn't enacted, for example, a European minimum wage, hmm what we're {doing} was subsidize hmm the end of production in some countries in order to absorb production excesses from other countries. Like the French dairy industry, ( ). I think that's why they let us in with the Spaniards. And because they need access to the sea, it's handy, too.

M: Yes, thank you PTFG2_M2. I give the floor to PTFG2_F1.

PTFG2_F1: When you talk about the European Union, two words come to me: the advantages and disadvantages, that's it. As advantages, we have the free movement of people, the single currency, the existence of new markets, goods, commodities, capital, subsidies to support the development of the economy, and so on. But then we also have the disadvantages, because not only from flowers live the countries that make up the European Union. So, there are some disadvantages, such as difficulty in achieving the criteria of economic convergence and competing in some extremely competitive markets such as agriculture and industry. And then we also have the immigration cases, which I think the European Union fails a lot ( ). It is always the advantages and the disadvantages. If on the one hand it was good, we also have some disadvantages.

M: We're going to discuss this issue of the advantages and disadvantages later on. Thank you, PTFG2_F1. I now give the floor to PTFG2_F4.

PTFG2_F4: So, hmm mutual help in the most varied valences. A force-, united are stronger. And the interest in common, (short pause) (in the fight?) for goals, more properly. To achieve the goals, they stipulate.

M: Yes, yes. So mutual help, you want to explore this idea of mutual help a little bit more?

PTFG2_F4: Yes. Hmm let's say there was an earthquake or floods that devastated a country, or part of {a country}. This mutual help that already existed before, but that now there is more of it (short pause), more channeled hmm -. If before, there was a country or another that helped, there were for example us with the United States, and with Spain. Not now. Now there are MORE countries helping when there is that. Of course, there are countries here-, the original idea, which was initially beautiful, but now there are countries taking some economic advantage, namely, in my opinion, namely France and Germany.

M: Okay, PTFG2_F4. Thank you so much for your contribution. I now give the floor to PTFG2_M5.

PTFG2_M5: When I hear about the European Community, two words come to mind: difficulty and diversity. That's two words. Diversity because there are twenty-seven countries with their cultures, their traditions and there being a political center as there is in parliament it is very difficult to combine this diversity. And difficulty is, it’s also what I have already said, and it’s the financial part of how to make a European Community united with fewer differences between countries.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M5-

PTFG2_F1: It's hard to be-, I understand what he means... It's hard for the states to all agree, isn't it? It's a very heavy organization.

PTFG2_M5: Because each country, for example, at the moment we have Hungary with a political power opposed to the theory of formation of the European Community. We have countries that are democratic, others that are more totalitarian...

PTFG2_F1: Totalitarian, yes.

PTFG2_M5: For example, we had the refugees. Most countries agreed to take in refugees and there were others who didn’t

PTFG2_F1: Yes, yes…

M: Many of these topics we will explore them with much more depth further ahead during the session. I give PTFG2_F3 the opportunity to share with us.

PTFG2_F3: I'll be more succinct than the other [laughs], at least the general idea. When you speak of the European Community, European Union, I remember the European continent, union, a power, let’s call it so, against the other continents, so to speak. Trust, security. Some kind of cushion that can help us in case there's a problem. It can be internal or external. But it's a cushion that we have. And sharing between countries, brothers so to speak, {sharing} ideas and goals. That's how I feel.

M: Thank you…

PTFG2_F3: With all that's inherent to that.

M: Yes. Thank you, PTFG2_F3. Okay, maybe you guys were pretty explicit, we'll move on to the next phase of the discussion.

So, this question is more open ended... [PTFG2_F3 seems to be addressing a cat]. It's more open ended. Watch out for the microphones [laughs]. Hmm…

PTFG2_F3: It's my cat who wants to intervene...

M: So, this question is more open ended and basically it goes something like this: how you would describe your position, or attitude, or feeling, towards the European Union and, please, elaborate a little. Here we will no longer follow the order {of the windows} of the zoom and we will be-, the discussion is now open. Anyone who wants to sign up is welcomed to do so.

PTFG2_F4: Can you repeat the question, please?

M: How, how?

PTFG2_F4: How would you describe...

M: How would you describe your position, or attitude, or feeling towards the European Union?

PTFG2_M2: I can speak now.

M: Go ahead, PTFG2_M2.

[00:10:00]

PTFG2_M2: I’m a kind of Euro dreamer, which is something that comes from a former Eurosceptic. I'm believing more in Europe now, but without great reasons. But then when I see women being elected to the presidency of the European Parliament who are against abortion and in favor of violence against women, I get a little scared. But I still have some hope-, either for the communion of selfishness or otherwise, that this will one day become a real Europe. But [laughs] not yet. So, I’m a semi-, euro dreamer, instead of a Eurosceptic so [laughs], with hope that has not yet died. Hope is the last one to die.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M2. I don't know if we have... Okay, we got PTFG2_M5. Go ahead.

PTFG2_M5: Initially when hmm a set of countries came together to start a community, that if I am not mistaken was the so-called community of iron or something like that, which then gave rise to certain founding countries of the European community. The goal was for countries to be more united. And as PTFG2_M2 said, I think the European Community today is more politicized and less focused on the citizens who make up that community. And we see countries criticizing, trying to veto immigration policies, trying to blackmail others-, or to do what they want or cut off gas, supply to the European Community. Then we have external factors that lead to the European community deciding a certain procedure.

And it's complicated for a person who's out, a person of the people of any country, I think, the EU is a little bit closed at the political level. We don't know what's going on in Parliament. We only know when the laws are transposed from the European Parliament to the parliaments of the countries. I think there's a lack of information to the general population. We only realize that laws were made in Parliament when here-. For example, in Portugal they are obliged, they only have a short period to transpose a Community directive. That's my opinion.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M5. We have one more... PTFG2_F4, go ahead.

PTFG2_F4: So, hmm with the elimination of customs duties, with the (short pause) with the end of the fees-, those exchange rates, facilitates the economic flow. The EU has brought us products with more affordable prices because you don't have those associated costs. And also, hmm, in terms of being easier to acquire them. On the other hand, we have the question of being easier, for example, and especially the skilled workforce of them fleeing our country. Hmm we see that we train good professionals, we have good universities, and we are investing in them, because it’s the state that pays, it’s with our taxes. hmm that then who will enjoy, both the taxes, because it is the active life of people, as well as a skilled labor that they didn’t pay to qualify, are the countries that offer better working conditions.

So, the European Union has brought good things, yes. It also brought a multiculturalism that is also very important, brought us a technological advancement which is really important too. But it also brings some disadvantages and I think emigration, I think emigration is one of the disadvantages. Especially of the skilled labor, which we train and that will {emigrate} within working age.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F4. Hmm <PTFG2_F4> brought up this subject, which had also been talked about in the previous question, of advantages and disadvantages, so if you want to explore this, you should go ahead. Right now... we have PTFG2_F1 and PTFG2_F3...

PTFG2_F4: The question was what my position was, what did I think of the...

M: No, no. You did just that- , yes, that was it, PTFG2_F4. I was just using your intervention to explore this issue a little bit more. I'm sorry, PTFG2_F1. Go ahead.

PTFG2_F1: The question was how-, to describe our feeling? Yes?

M: Or position, or attitude, yes, yes.

PTFG2_F1: Okay, here's the thing. I see the entry into the European Union as a mission to achieve the peace of the countries. The EU aims to preserve the values, diversities, identities of the population, but a feeling that I have, one of the reasons for its existence, I think is to ensure the safety of citizens. Okay, and then comes the issue of immigration, which PTFG2_F4 spoke of, which I think fails a little. Hmm really, the feeling I have-. I think it was GOOD to enter the European Union, only I think there is still a lot to be done. I know it's a very heavy organization because it covers many countries and it’s hard to form agreements, isn't it? But I think there must be an organization, and that basis we have to highlight the European Parliament, the European Council, the European Commission, the Court of Justice and the Central Bank. They are the pillars, and you always have to agree for things to work. That's my opinion.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F1. PTFG2_F3 still hasn't spoken. I don't know if you have...

PTFG2_F3: I can speak. You asked me about my attitude towards the European Union.

M: Yes, yes.

PTFG2_F3: For now, it's a peaceful attitude. I walk in easy to see what it is, and I watch, I hear to understand what it is that they say and then I criticize. ( ). It is the attitude I have towards the European Union [laughs]. Then if you want me to explore some other theme... For now, it's the attitude I have.

M: Yes, yes. Here attitude is in the sense of-, a feeling or position. Not a specific behavior, but what do you think, what do you think about the European Union in general. If there are benefits, if there isn't, and everything else.

PTFG2_F3: No doubt about it, no doubt about it. Benefits, many benefits even. But it's not just benefits that we take away either. The others have pointed to a lot of them. The issue of migrants, for example, I also agree with the speech of... I don't know who it was [laughs], I'm sorry. But in time, with the discussion, I'm going to go into more detail, okay?

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F3…

PTFG2_M5: Can I just add one more thing?

M: Yes. Briefly, to move on to the next phase.

PTFG2_M5: First of all, ( ) with the laws that the European Parliament, are made regarding poverty. I belong to the European Anti-Poverty Network, and we try to do studies and we also see-. I think that this area is very lacking also at European level, to look at the poor and not only at the people who make money.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M5. Thank you. So now we move onto the next stage. And at this stage I'm going to present you with some scenarios, hypothetical scenarios, and we'll then discuss on the basis of these scenarios. So, first scenario: imagine that-, curiously this subject has even been brought up by PTFG2_F4. Coincidence, but now let's talk a little more about it. So, imagine that there's a major natural disaster. An earthquake, a fire, a flood, something like that, in a European Union country other than yours. In another country of the European Union. How do you think-, and then you can focus more on one aspect, or all of them. How do you think the EU should react in such a scenario? How do you think the other countries of the European Union should react as countries? And how do you think your country should react in a natural disaster scenario? Okay, PTFG2_M5 is already registered and if there are more volunteers, you should sign up as well. Go ahead, PTFG2_M5.

[00:21:15]

PTFG2_M5: Such cooperation already exists. Because there is civil protection at the country level and at the European level. For example, when there were the fires in Pedrogão, those great fires in Portugal, the European civil protection was activated, and help came from Italy and Spain. And this cooperation is already defined and in it theory works well.

M: I'm sorry, PTFG2_M5. So, and taking about what you said, why do you think that-, and I don't know if you make that distinction, you said that in theory it works well, you think it doesn't work or you have some opinion about it.

PTFG2_M5: Because now with the new more radical political trends, there are countries that have jumped out of this system. Who are against collaboration, are against-. And, but I have-, we have seen this example. We saw the example when there was that earthquake in Italy that decimated that village, now I can't remember the name. In Sicily or something. That the village was devasted. There was collaboration at European level. The system is well assembled at the level of civil protection. We have already helped European countries, we have already gone to other countries outside the European Community, but that doesn’t matter at this time. And I think there's a good collaboration of national entities. In that respect...

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M5. I think PTFG2_M2 also wants to speak. Go ahead.

PTFG2_M2: For my part, it was to complement what PTFG2_M5 was saying. I have the feeling ( ), it already works. Hmm I don't know, my question is whether it has to do with the more humanitarian side of each of the countries that it's moving forward with contingents to support, and I think for our part we should, even from the example of the fires, we should be the first to have a team ready to go to help, wherever it was. As soon as it was requested too, because of these bureaucratic issues. If the country that is the victim asks for help, that is, if (is it possible?) without such a request.

Hmm what I think is sometimes it’s faster between countries, for that help to happen, than in a way-, it’s the feeling that I have, in a very organized way at the European level. I know that sometimes there are teams-, when it was the earthquake, there are teams of people who have the dogs that do searches, who advanced straight ahead, not knowing if they had the budget to go there or not. I think the only negative aspect here right now is maybe, is a heavy machine, the machine of the European Union, I don’t know if that is well oiled. I think it should be more predefined. Even run simulations in case of fire. How many planes does each country give? How many firemen do they send? It's just that sometimes there's one thing that's too much help. And too much help can get in the way, too.

So, if there was organization by country, and then it could be perfected. But the feeling that I have at the humanitarian level, is that things are working, even quite well, is in these terms, in those terms of humanitarian aid and so on. At least between countries in Europe. Humanitarian aid to countries outside Europe, is another conversation entirely. But between countries {in Europe} I think so, that it’s working. I think it could be further improved at that level of already having a plan of who sends what in order not to have overlaps.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M2. I don't know if there were any more people who want to speak, meanwhile...

PTFG2_F1: I think PTFG2_M2 is right. A civil protection mechanism should be set up to provide humanitarian aid quickly in the event of a disaster. Hmm and also maybe subsidies to help people. Everybody should agree. I don't know, I don't know. I see it that way.

M: So, I’ll just-, before we went ahead because PTFG2_F3 was already enrolled to speak and then PTFG2_F4 too, but continuing on this issue, PTFG2_M2 spoke of sending contingents, firefighters, etc. PTFG2_F1 spoke of subsidies, for example-.

PTFG2_F1: And civil protection mechanisms.

M: Yes, yes. But the question I ask is whether you, for example, if you’d be available to have additional costs, taxes, whatever, for example, for such mechanisms to be available. This is just another question; we can do a second round to talk a little more about it.

PTFG2_M5: I don't think it’s needed...

M: I'm sorry, PTFG2_M5, let’s just follow the order of who was already registered. I give the floor to PTFG2_F3.

PTFG2_F3: I agree with what was said. Although I believe that all the help that has been made available, is more of out of the good will of the intervening countries than of the European Union itself. I agree that there should be a group, some rules, a more effective plan to intervene in the cases {of catastrophe}, and as you said and I think I agree, there should be a fee, something like that that we could collaborate on to have that contingency. Okay, this plan. For any country in the European Union and not just our sister countries. Portugal with Spain and France, France with us. Okay, but on a general level. But I agree with what was said.

M: So, we have PTFG2_F4 registered to speak, and then we see if we do another round or not.

PTFG2_F4: So, the European Union already has a mechanism for such disaster management hmm, and it already foresees possible disasters, both with humanitarian aid and with financial subsidies. There's already a fund for that and there's already manpower for that. This is already taken care of, in fact, they are already set up for this.

At level of Portugal-, this at European level, at the level of Portugal, I don’t believe that we are-, we fall short. I think we lack the mechanisms, I think that a lot has been taken way from us: the forest rangers, for example, who were protective measures. And I think that's what's missing. They were professions that-. They wanted to cut back on expenses, but they forgot about prevention. And prevention sometimes brings us... Of course, it is not something that you see, but the absence of this prevention causes-. For example, when there were the forest rangers, maybe there weren't that many fires. It wasn't a job that was seen, but now with the number of fires, we see that’s something missing. For example, this cut was very bad. And Portugal falls short on issues of defense and prevention, in fire prevention policies and having people prepared for when there are such disasters.

Even the fire brigades are running out. There’s a lack of firefighters because they aren’t offered good conditions to perform {their function}. There is a disinvestment in these prevention policies. You don't see funds channeled into fire brigades. Because the same firefighters who are going to act in accidents, they're the same ones who are going to act in a fire. There's no separation. Or in the event of a flood, they're the same. And there is ( ). Many of these have to be the citizen himself that makes this demonstration and solidarity.

If you ask me if I’m willing to pay? I’m not missing out on willingness, but I will give my specific example: I’ve been a civil servant for twenty years and I earn close to the minimum wage. How am I going to contribute from my minimum wage, which 20 years ago was middle class salary, but it has been the same value for the last twenty years. At this moment I’m moving towards the poor class-, if it still exists, because for me there is no middle class, for me there are more and more social asymmetries-, how am I going to contribute? Am I going to contribute and stop putting food on the table or stop paying the electricity bill? It's one thing to ask me if I have the good will to {contribute more}? I have! I have. If I see someone starving, I'm not inhuman and I feel like helping, but to the detriment of having my children starving, no! It's one thing to want to {help} and I think that you should help and think that there should be that fund. Another thing is what conditions and at what price. And that price I'm not willing to pay because it when the end of the month comes, I have more month than salary. Therefore, I have no lack of willingness, but I lack the means.

[00:32:02]

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F4. Yes, and by exploring this issue and extrapolating to the level of relations between countries, do you think, and you can take it from here, or you can explore the issues that have been mentioned previously, do you think some countries should do a little more than others? Depending on various development criteria, and so on?

[Many of the participants start talking at the same time].

Just to impose a little bit of order here so that it doesn't get all disorganized. We open for this discussion of the theme and, therefore, for inscriptions. PTFG2_M2 advanced first and if you want to explore the theme you can use the zoom hand or give some signal. So, go ahead, PTFG2_M2.

PTFG2_M2: I was going to suggest. The question of how to pay hmm I don't see it as being something that comes properly out of our pocket. For example, there was a solution to pay for this which is to put those countries that make tax competition, like the Netherlands, to put the difference they charge less to have the company's head offices in their countries, to put that into the system to help others [laughs]. But this is a bit... I don't know, SONAE is based in the Netherlands, Pingo Doce is based in the Netherlands, because theoretically they pay less taxes than in Portugal. Theoretically or in practice. Stamp duty taxes and so on. So, either there is a fiscal harmony for everyone, and the head offices come back here, or in that case those who make that competition could pay the difference until it is the same as what is paid here and in other countries of Europe. And that {value} specifically entered into... This budget-sharing thing is a little tricky, but this value could go in specifically... "Look, 2 or 3% more goes to the disaster support trust fund and so on." And maybe then we would continue to walk to a fairer Europe.

Because then there's a question too, I didn't even want to go into it right now, but the offshores, which should have been abolished a long time ago. But I think that's how... Because if taxes are the same, if there's a European minimum wage, if taxes are the same in all European countries, Then I'm much more federalist than anything else, am I not? If it was all the same, maybe... Then looking at the costs of living, and I don't know, we’d no longer would have nurses fleeing to England or doctors fleeing to Germany and things like that. As soon as-, even earning less, and having a better life, because at the end of the day we ended up having to-, with the salary that PTFG2_F4 was referring to just a while ago, it’s impossible to live in Europe anyway, and here it is still possible. Here anyway... you don’t starve at least. Perhaps if there was a fiscal harmony, which is what fails for us to be a complete Europe. There could be a difference in top wages. Now, when the top salaries in Portugal are the highest in Europe and the lowest are the lowest in Europe, the whole thing gets very complicated. But yes, it should be getting-, create a fiscal harmony between countries and then go and get that value and then use it to {finance} support for each other. I mean... [laughs].

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M2. So, we have PTFG2_M5 registered to speak, and I don't know there are any more registrations.

PTFG2_M5: I think (short pause) hmm, the other countries that join-. It's a little complicated. I put myself in the shoes of a person who lives in Finland and doesn’t want to... They start thinking, "I work for others," the problem is the distribution of money. We will receive the so-called bazooka, due to the problem we have with Covid, but before that there came a lot of money from the European Community that we didn’t take advantage of. At first when we entered the Community, lots of money started to pour into the country, there were those vocational and occupational trainings that were not given. There was a lot of scams, lots of corruption in these trainings. And then there were no culprits in Portugal. We had an embezzlement in a bank that most Portuguese, who work, continue to pay, money continues to be put in that bank that could be destined to improve the life of the general population. I think that the European Community in this respect has failed a bit in the supervision of its members, of its member countries. I think it should be stricter, “I give $500 billion to a country, but where are they going to spend it? Are you going to spend all that money, how? What's going to be done?”

And as I have already said, the general population, how will it be explained to a person who has little literacy about the European Community? People usually think of the European Community on travelling. And we have another factor: the Euro came in and things went up in price. They've been levelled from the top. An expresso used to cost 50 escudos now costs 150. And that’s it.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M5. Thank you. I don't know if there's anyone else who wants to contribute to this particular topic.

PTFG2_F1: Economic inequalities should be reduced...

M: Go ahead, PTFG2_F1.

PTFG2_F1: I think reducing economic inequalities, people earning a little more to cope with {price increases} in things. That’s the way we should go. I understand what PTFG2_F4 said, we all have a lot of empathy, we all want to help, the problem is that we can't. Because we make little money, because the salaries are not enough. I'm also a civil servant and I also get a little bit- little bit more than the minimum wage as well. And I totally understand what she said. And like this, it’s complicated for us to help, isn't it? And should be giving better conditions to the citizens of each country. That's why you should vote Left Bloc! [laughs]. Now it was a joke.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F1. So, we move onto the second scenario. Oh no, okay, we have PTFG2_F3's last speech, and then we'll close this round and move on to the second scenario. Go ahead.

PTFG2_F3: When I spoke in a fee and agreed that there should a small fee... We have so many fees that are charged to us on electricity, in the water, I don't know! That you don't see any result from them, you don't see anything that justifies it. They're cents, it's true they are just cents. But many cents make euros and make thousands of euros. That's the kind of fee I was proposing or saying that I agreed. No, I also earn the minimum wage, I also don't want them to take a big slice of my salary to... Although I would feel a little bit more protected. But that's what I talked about hmm of agreeing to the creation of such a fee. But we should see its results. That's all it was.

[00:40:47]

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F3. So, we move on to the second scenario. But once again, we are faced with a reasonably hypothetical, speculative situation, and we will discuss on it. So, if an economic crisis such as the euro crisis, for example, happened again and some countries were adversely or negatively affected more severely than others within the European Union, how should your country react? In your opinion. Once again, this is a reasonably open-ended question, there's plenty to pick up. I don't know if we have any volunteers. We have PTFG2_M2, we have PTFG2_M5. Okay, so I give PTFG2_M2 the floor. Go ahead.

PTFG2_M2: This has already happened, hasn't it? We're usually in the role of the victim [laughs]. We, our neighbors next door, and our neighbors in Greece, our neighbors in Italy. They call us PIGS, that's what they call us. It has already happened, and Europe has already shown what it was worth in this regard! Now [laughs], is this going to change from now on? I don't know.

There are several questions here. It's the question of the Dutchman who thinks that this here is the country of wine hmm and the professional ladies of sex and thinks the same about Spain and thinks the same about-, but then he likes to come here for a holiday because there was a great plan that was to turn Southern Europe into the holiday resort of the rest of Europe. Even the Finns who make a lot of money and don't know where they're going to spend it, because it’s always nighttime over there, basically, there's no sun over there and they all get depressed. Now, of this was better paid for. That is, since we are going to be the holiday resort of Europe, at least we should be better paid for it.

There's a fact, any way that-. We also put ourselves in this position. Just a while ago PTFG2_M5 was talking about it, the total party that was when the first European funds came and how BMWs become tractors, Moto 4 were agricultural machines, private boats to ride in the dams. I live here in Aveiro, but I'm from the Abrantes area, I remember what that was! Pine forests were burned down to plant eucalyptus trees. This was a crazy party because that was a money tap that never ended and then they forgot that someday we had to pay for it.

The problem is, when we get to the part of paying for this, everyone pays for it. When it's in the part of enjoying the funds, not so much. And so, if you go back to economic crisis, it's almost here again. We haven't caught that Covid crash yet, and maybe in a few months we'll start seeing that. The bazooka is going to be a drop of water in the middle of the ocean because this when it blows for real... I'm a little pessimistic and then the guys come back from up there in Northern Europe, saying that “you have to fire more people, you have to privatize more”. I don't know what else there is to privatize. IL knows, I don't know, IL knows what there's still more to privatize, and Rio knows it, too. There's still stuff in there somewhere to privatize and to get it out there to help pay for this.

Now I don't know what life we're going to have. Almost no one is born anymore, so many people are already staying-, having to receive immigration- that's why we want to receive them with open arms, AND GOOD FOR IT, and people come from outside Europe because almost no one is born, at least here in Portugal and Spain in a little while too.

So, if the economic crisis came back and some countries were affected, I think we're completely screwed. Really [laughs], we and Southern Europe, we're really screwed because there won't be-. This is the same last support that is to arrive and from here, there is nothing else. Okay, I won't talk anymore [laughs].

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M2. Hmm just to complexify the issue further. I ask you to put yourselves, I know it's a difficult exercise, but put yourselves now, not only in the position as PTFG2_M2 said of victims, but also of putting yourselves on the other side. If there was some crisis, I don't know, let's imagine in Eastern Europe, how should Portugal react to this scenario? We have a European reaction, or we had, for example in the last crisis. But there were also leaders of the countries that also spoke out, sometimes in somewhat moralistic ways, etc. And therefore, it’s to do this exercise of putting ourselves on the other side. Portugal not being the victim this time, how could it react to this scenario. So, we have a registration...

PTFG2_M2: By the way, just to...

M: Go ahead, but quickly.

PTFG2_M2: Considering that you changed this thing. On the contrary, I think that... It always depends, and that is the risk of this thing, it always depends on the leaders of each country. The big question is that we don't know how to read the culture of each country. That is, it is very easy to generalize, and in their case, we are the PIGS, and for us, they are those rich guys who bathe in gold and don’t deserve any help, even some were ex-communists as is the case there for the other side of Germany {referring to East Germany}, they were ex-communists and then we were the moralists. What I think should be done is a European balance and really when we receive, we can and should give in return.

Now there it is, that's what they think sometimes: we're going to finance an oligarch or a Hungarian dictator. Or we're going to finance some other guy who's been embezzling money to an offshore account, I don't know where, for his own use, and he's going to leave his country in misery, I don't know. I don't know how the Czech Republic is doing. And then we don't know how Servia is doing or how it is, I don't know what. And countries there in the center of Europe, which sometimes we have no idea how they work. This is all very hidden, isn't it? We spent a week talking about a cat and we don't talk about important topics, but really [laughs].

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M2. We have the registration of PTFG2_M5 and then PTFG2_F4.

PTFG2_M5: Just one question. A few years ago, we received support and we were under the troika's purview, didn't we also give help to a more deprived country? We already do these things. And I think if we do, we also have a duty to help those who are more in need than we are. If we need it, there are other countries that also need it. And I agree there, but we can't get too indebted to help others either. Because here it’s like a dog that bites its own tail. We are indebted, we will again need community support and it is always-. Then we have to pay the debt and so on. That's a bit subjective the percentage of-, even at the level of Parliament it always, always generates great controversy, "Who helps who? What is the percentage of each country?" I think Europe sees numbers and doesn’t see situations of extreme poverty in countries, that really need the help. That's all.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M5. So, we have PTFG2_F4 and then I don't know if PTFG2_F1 or PTFG2_F3 would like to say something as well.

PTFG2_F1: Yes, I can speak later...

M: Ok. Go ahead, PTFG2_F4.

[00:49:38]

PTFG2_F4: This would be context dependent. If we had the resources to help, financially with money, I think we should help. If, for example, they owed us something, given the inability to forgive part of the debt or interest or whatever, hmm I also think so. But we could also create public policies to welcome people {from these countries}. We have a lot of lack of manpower, especially in-, I was going to say in the heavier and manual jobs, in agriculture, in construction. We could create integration policies to welcome these people if they wanted to immigrate. And offer them, on the one hand we would get a return with more taxes, we would boost our economy and we would help them too. Just as we were helped when we went to France, to Venezuela, to other countries at another time. It depends on the context in which we are met and the reality of the country.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F4. Then I’ll give the floor to PTFG2_F1. Go ahead.

PTFG2_F1: Just one thing. M, you can just rephrase the question is that I'm a little confused.

M: Yes, yes, of course. So here the scenario is if there were a crisis like the euro crisis, if such a crisis were to happen again, and countries within the European Union were more affected than others. How should Portugal react to this scenario? And here, there is this duality, Portugal could be the country where this crisis is happening, or not being {that country} and therefore is able to help. Or not, it depends on the perspective of each of you. That's why we're holding these meetings. I don't know if I made myself clear.

PTFG2_F1: So, but one of the principles of belonging to the European Union is precisely this humanitarian aid, isn't it? Through partnerships, agreements, I don't know. So that we can help each other. I think Portugal would have to help. Right?

M: Go ahead, PTFG2_F1. Go ahead.

PTFG2_F1: I think it's one of the principles! It's one of the rules of being in the European Union, it's humanitarian aid. Portugal would have to contribute, as it can, to other countries. I don't see... How could we contribute to help? Is that's it?

M: Contribute... Yes, yes. To contribute or not, depends on your position. You can even argue that we shouldn't contribute. That's exactly why we're doing these discussions, to see what comes out...

PTFG2_F1: But the European Union applies this principle. It's one of the rules, it's one of the pillars, isn't it? It's humanitarian aid. You couldn't stay out of it, could you?

M: Yes. We're talking about speculative scenarios right now, so we can abstract a little from what you consider to already exist, or what you consider to be the rules of the game, so to speak.

PTFG2_F1: I see this as one of the rules, one of the basic principles of European integration.

M: So, before I move on to PTFG2_F3, I'm going to be more-, I'm going to densify the issue even further. Hmm this is a scenario that is familiar to all of us, and I also want to see what you do-, I want to see what’s your opinion on this. If the country, in this case yours, for example, receives financial support in a crisis situation, from other countries or from the European Union, do you consider that the country must comply with certain restrictions or constraints that accompany such aid, or not? And before moving on to PTFG2_F3, who can talk about this or about another issue that has already been mentioned, hmm I appealed to your registrations, and to move the session a further on, to your sense of brevity. Go ahead, PTFG2_F3.

PTFG2_F3: Now, hmm aid is not only composed of the money. We learned a lot from our crisis. We can teach others what we've learned. At the level of support, I agree with PTFG2_F1 when she says that there’s already a structure made for-, it’s all done, it’s just a matter of applying the support and each country contributes with what it can. But we as ex cripples, ex harmed, so to speak, we can help the new injured, the new countries with problems, with our knowledge. Because for us to get here, for us to get out of the crisis, we had to knock our head against the wall several times and learn the rules of the crisis game, so to speak. And it's also a way for us to be able to help, not me, but the experts, isn't it [laughs]? The rulers of the time and not only, politicians and economists, will be able to help with knowledge as well. Because we made a lot of mistakes, just because we didn't know what we were dealing with.

And it's not just money, because money when it's misused and when it's misdistributed, it makes even more confusion than helping. And it's a way for us to help. This is about what you said before, how we can help in a scenario like the one we lived through.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F3. We still have a few minutes left for this issue. I don't know if anyone wants to make any more contributions.

PTFG2_M2: Then maybe I can...

M: So, organizing this a little bit, we have PTFG2_M2, PTFG2_F4 and PTFG2_M5. I appealed to your sense of brevity to move on to the next stage.

PTFG2_M2: Yes, very quickly. You had spoken in case we were the donors if we should impose rules on other countries.

M: Or as receivers also -, we have both positions.

PTFG2_M2: I am not shocked by the issue in any way of imposing rules or receiving rules. The problem is what kind of rules they are. That is, if they are expansionist rules to help the country grow, yes ma'am. But that's not what happened in Portugal! Because we have proof of this, because from the moment we began to slightly reset wages, which had been frozen, the economy itself improved greatly. I mean, yes to rules, but it has to be-. And the problem is, how do you in a country that is completely on different planes- not in a country, in a Europe that is on completely different planes and with completely different economic theories, how do you impose any kind of rule? Because it's very easy to say, "Look if you don't eat, there's money left at the end of the month." You can starve to death. If there is no one who puts a brake on this and says that we cannot condemn the other countries to poverty so that they can pay us. We have to have a policy-. Okay, impose a policy, as long as it's expansionary and in the perspective of those countries getting better so they can pay us. And that's it.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M2. We now have PTFG2_F4 and then PTFG2_M5.

PTFG2_F4: I think so, yes. If in fact, there is economic aid, there should always be monitorization with a strategic plan. But I think the main participant in this plan, in the elaboration of this plan, should be the country itself that is being helped. Because the country knows, or should know, its economic reality and culture. So, they'll know better, their representatives will know better than external ones, how you draw up a recovery plan. That's why I think so. It should always be accompanied, to help is not to give money for nothing just to give money for its own sake. There must always be an associated economic recovery plan.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F4. So, we have PTFG2_M5, and I don't know if anyone else wants to say anything about this topic.

PTFG2_F1: I agree with what its being said...

PTFG2_M5: I…

M: So, PTFG2_M5 will speak now, and then if PTFG2_F1 wants to develop {the issue} a little more, we can then close with PTFG2_F1.

PTFG2_M5: I'm with PTFG2_M2. I do not mind imposing some rules, but the political power in that country cannot impose rules as they did in our country that went beyond what was requested at the time. They reduced wages, they stopped paying, for example, wages, Christmas allowances and holiday allowances. People started getting them throughout the year. And then it depends on the salary, there were people who were more affected in terms of salary because they changed the IRS tier because of these 10 or 15 euros of the so-called monthly twelfths and changed the IRS tier and paid more taxes and as such, earned less. And this story of restrictions is a bit like PTFG2_M2 said, it's a bit tricky in a Europe with so much economic and cultural diversity. That's all it was.

[01:00:57]

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M5. I don’t know if PTFG2_F1 wants to develop a little... Go ahead.

PTFG2_F1: The only thing I can say is that all countries have a choice whether or not to integrate with the European Union, considering its advantages and disadvantages. Then, I think that-, it has to have, each country has to have autonomy. You know how far you can go. If you decide to move forward, I think (short pause). You have to see the best solution to help, so that people can have-, how am I going to explain this. Help me M [laughs]. When integrating with the European Union (short pause) you have to then also give in with, with... as far as we can go... Always having, always thinking of the citizens hmm. What's best for each person...

PTFG2_M5: May I?

M: Go ahead, PTFG2_M5. But quickly, quickly, please

PTFG2_M5: For example, eastern countries are poor countries, and some want to join the European Community to develop. Soon the countries that are in the European Community have to help them. But how are you going to do that in an eastern country that has a different culture from ours at the political level and everything?

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M5. Thanks for the question. Hmm if there are no more people who want to speak on for this round, we can move on to the third and final scenario. For the third and final scenario. So, this one {scenario} is already less hypothetical, it's already less speculative, but it's equally open-ended to various positions and interpretations. So, considering that there are inequalities between countries and between people within their own country, should the European Union have common programs or funds to reduce these social inequalities? If so, if not, why yes or why not, etc. I don't know if we have any volunteers. We have PTFG2_M5. Please, please, so I can organize the order. Go ahead, PTFG2_M5.

PTFG2_M5: There are already some funds in this regard, but there are still few. There's still a lot, a lot of inequality even at the level of, within each country. We heard that the Netherlands is a rich country, Germany, or France, but we forget that it is not the country, the whole population. It's like in here. It's not-, it's just on a different level, but hmm (long pause), how am I going to explain this? It's a bit tricky for me to explain it like that, but that's it, there are a lot of inequalities at European level. It’s a bit-, and the European Community already has some programs for {social} integration, to support ethnic groups, to support the most vulnerable people, to...

M: PTFG2_M5, I'm sorry to interrupt you. As you say the European Union already has these programs, already has some programs, but what do you think about the scope or effectiveness of these programs.

PTFG2_M5: For what they are, they are effective, but there is still a long way to go before we all are equal within the European Community. I know this is an almost impossible dream to fulfill, but as someone said, the dream commands life.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M5.

PTFG2_M5: That was all.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M5. Hmm so the question I was asking, just to complexify this issue before we move on to PTFG2_F4, is whether you think, because the question was whether the European Union should have a program or funds, whatever it is. So, if you think that it’s more of a responsibility of the European Union or if it’s more a responsibility of the country itself, for example to address inequalities within the country itself. You can explore this too. And I now give the floor to PTFG2_F4.

PTFG2_F4: So, I think to bridge these social asymmetries we should first start by cleaning our own house from the inside. Because not always what is stated correspondent to the reality of the country. That is, we have a very poor nation, but then we have people with very inflated salaries. So, let's start doing maybe a regressive tax so they don't get away from paying taxes here too much. I dunno! Exempt {payment of taxes} up to a certain amount, which exists, but which is very low. Top it off first at the national level. But at the national level, not from Portugal, but at the national level of each European country individually.

If that fails, then a general policy should be created. Because I think first you clean up the house for yourself and then you go all the way. I think it should be first a general law -. A hmm law of the country and then a general law. And with the rules that it should be the same. First a law, or more focused rules in each country, because each country has its reality and a general law cannot-, it isn’t productive because it isn’t so specific to the {specific} difficulties {of each country}. So, I think only failing hmm the internal policy, should we go to external {level}. Did I make myself understood?

M: Yes, yes PTFG2_F4. Thank you. I don't know if we have any more registrations. We have PTFG2_M2, do we have anyone else? Okay, we have PTFG2_M2, then I’ll give PTFG2_F1 the floor and then to PTFG2_F3. Go ahead, PTFG2_M2.

PTFG2_M2: This goes in the direction of what I said before. I think this, yes (short pause). To solve this issue of inequalities, first there would have to be-. The secret is in the economy, there should be a European minimum wage and from there, yes, from there, yes. I get annoyed that I've been talking about the economy for so long, but basically [laughs]. In the Portugues case, we're going to reduce this to the Portuguese case, if there are more people making money, and consuming, and paying the bills on time, the economy itself grows. The economy will grow. We, for example, are a country very much based on the small companies that survives with two or three employees, and the boss also works. We don't-, we're export competitive, but we're not competitive compared to China. Importing from outside Europe to Europe, perhaps there is some higher tax, something like that, to the point of avoiding a war. As we have privatized companies in countries, as we have done with EDP and monopolistic companies, if we start to mess with that gold that is now theirs, we run the risk of being invaded or something.

This issue of inequalities is dependent on wages, because when people earn well, they want to vote for Rui Rio, and everything is quickly forgotten. They're already thinking about voting for IL and stuff like that. So, most of all it was about the wages and the economy moving forward, going up there a little bit. Even if it's by decree, as others say. Because when it's by decree, it's only a matter of two or three months, because then it flows into the economy. And then we should see the question of fiscal harmony in relation to the rest of Europe, to be even, to be really hmm-. The same VAT in all countries and so on. There would not be such competition for the companies' headquarters and there we’d be able to combat inequalities.

Because inequalities at the end of the day-. The companies we have out there in other countries, pay their salaries according to the country. So, if you can pay those salaries over there, maybe over here they could pay a little more. We have GALP in Spain, which charges the prices of the gasoline that Spain charges and pays Spanish wages. So, if they can charge less and pay more in Spain, why can't they do it here in Portugal? This is in the case of our companies that turn out to be multinationals and are established elsewhere. If I want to go open a Delta Q store in central Paris, I have to pay the salaries of central Paris and have to charge the prices of central Paris. So, if you can do that out there, you have to be able to do it in here. And then we would have a much more equal country with jobs for everyone.

Still, here days ago I had an argument about people who live on benefits. He was a restaurant owner complaining that he didn't have staff to work with, and then "it’s the benefits people," and when I asked him if he'd hire someone he knows who lives on benefits, he shuts up and says "that's not exactly what I was saying" Sometimes we make these comments, here in Portugal not here in this forum that we are having here, on this story of people who don’t want to work. When deep down no one would hire a person that receives benefits and who lives in certain neighborhoods and then inequality will deepen.

I now have an experience, for example, of working in a school and I see the differences in the social classes all the time. Those who come from more complicated neighborhoods, already have their life outlined, because they go to the professional course. They don't even have the hope of going to college anymore. They have already been cut out for something else, we still don't know what it's going to be because then let's see if the ( ) might not even have a job. So, tackling inequalities is first through wages and then the rest comes. For my part, that's it.

[01:13:15]

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M2. We have then entered- and then I wanted to take this idea of European minimum wage, but from another perspective, but before we go there, I give the floor to PTFG2_F1 and then to PTFG2_F3.

PTFG2_F1: I think European hmm funds are the main tools for promoting jobs, helping people to get better jobs, and securing new opportunities. Hmm and I also think that (shot pause) there are projects intended-, the funds are projects for educational systems, teachers, students, young people looking for work, it's all a help. I think that the funds are always very important and the core of the functioning of a good Europe. Who always knew how to welcome.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F1.

PTFG2_F1: The European funds...

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F1.

PTFG2_F1: M, I'm sorry, but like I told you, I have a meeting now.

M: If you have to leave, it's okay.

PTFG2_F1: I'm going to have to leave like I told you.

M: Yes, yes.

PTFG2_F1: Because of the {increase} of cases in my daughter's class.

M: Yes, no problem.

PTFG2_F1: The cases are skyrocketing, and the class principal wants to meet with her parents. Is that all right?

M: Yes, yes, no problem.

PTFG2_F1: So good night everyone [everyone waves goodbye]. Thank you, good night. Goodbye!

M: So, let’s move on to PTFG2_F3.

PTFG2_F3: Okay, you want to talk about inequality. There's inequality, we are talking about people, aren't we? There are always {inequalities}. Okay, but we could bridge that with wages, narrow the gap between (short pause) so-called top earning people and minimum wage people. If there was a top {maximum} salary, I don't know, if there were no salaries of more than 2000 euros and the minimum wage would be closer to 2000 euros, there wouldn’t be such a large gap, maybe things would get closer. This, and I'm also talking about pensions, because there are crazy pensions and very low pensions. This I'm talking about nationally. But if we could get that, and the other countries also. Of course, with the inequalities inherent in each country, there are countries that are more empowered than us, perhaps the gap between the various countries in Europe would not be so great.

I don't know if I made myself clear? That's because we are talking about inequalities. I agree with what the PTFG2_M2 has been saying, I fully agree. Hmm, but we talked about how to bridge this, that's my opinion. Impose {wage} limits on both low and high. Ours and in other {countries} and try to equate each other. That's my opinion. For what it's worth.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F3. So before-, PTFG2_M5 is registered, but before giving him the floor - and PTFG2_M2 too, but before moving on to them, I just wanted to ask another question about this issue of inequalities. To be a little more concrete than simply talking about funds and inequality and all that. And so, the question I asked you to discuss is this: should the European Union have to, and also taking a little what PTFG2_M2 had already said about the European minimum wage, should the European Union have a European regime to tackle unemployment in all the countries of the European Union, funded by all member states? And if, in such a scenario, do you consider whether your country should contribute to reducing unemployment-, this is a related but parallel question, whether you think that your country should contribute to reducing unemployment in other countries of the European Union even if it implies additional costs for your country? I don’t know if you want to discuss this issue of unemployment further afterwards. Now PTFG2_M2 is registered, and PTFG2_M5 goes next. So, I give the floor to PTFG2_M2.

PTFG2_M2: Well, for now, I was not expecting these two issues, but in relation to the top salary to go down, it’s like this. Only here in Portugal are there managers earning more than 100 salaries of the-, the salary of 100 employees put together. The question is not even minimal-, the person who receives less in the company-. In Portugal we have managers who earn the equivalent of 100 employees of the company, from the highest to the lowest salary. In Europe this does not happen. A maximum of 5 or 6 salaries. Even if it is a company with one million employees, the person who earns more does not receive more than 5 to 6 salaries than the person who earns less. And in Portugal you can go to 100. So, this is also a cultural issue that has to be resolved here. And that's it, I'll close it from here.

On the issue of unemployment funding. We can contribute everything, we even contribute manpower to other countries, because there are people in other countries who no longer want to do {certain jobs} for salaries that we're going to make there. Or, because in the case of nurses and doctors, they do have a lack of manpower. There are people and they need those that we are training here and which we are missing, they had them fired or not contract and we had a Prime Minister say "emigrate" because we had to finance, not to finance but to provide skilled labor to other European countries. So, we've already contributed with workforce.

Help end unemployment in other countries? Yes hmm, contributing to ending our {unemployment} as well. And there it is, in the economy we live in, it's basically all-around consumption. So, if we don't have money to consume, we don't create jobs anymore. We may have fewer hours of work a week. We are now starting to discuss the issue of the four days {of work}. Then yes, because then with leisure time, there was more time to go to the restaurant, to go here, to go there, and more jobs would be created automatically. Now having free time and not having money to spend which is what happens to any unemployed person, like me who have been unemployed several times, is not so very good or very useful [laughs]. Because then you have the time, but you can't spend money, you can't go here or there, because you can't contribute to the economy.

So, this is all about wages and common sense, which here in Portugal there is very little off. On this issue of top wages then it's a disgrace. There's no common sense. And then there it is, in Germany for example, a top manager earns no more than 5 times the lowest employee, because the lowest employee also earns frankly well and then there isn’t so much difference. Maybe we should follow the example of what is being done in Germany, Luxembourg, France and so on. Not on the part of inequality, that France is even more, or is getting more unequal than us. It's my theory. For my part this is it [laughs].

[01:21:31]

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M2. We then have PTFG2_M5 registered. I don't know if PTFG2_F4 and PTFG2_F3 want to say anything about this topic.

PTFG2_M5: I think about there being...

PTFG2_F4: I'm running out of battery, and I turned off the camera. But then when I have the floor, I'll turn it on.

M: Okay, okay. Thank you.

PTFG2_M5: On a European unemployment funding. I think that-, the contribution of all countries is already implicit in the creation of the European Community. Where the countries more-, because they have larger budgets, others less, have less. I think all countries contribute. Now about unemployment. How can there be a centralization to create an unemployment policy at European level, such as what the PTFG2_M2 has just said. We have countries where the salary is very low, which cannot even pay for the rent a flat. Currently here in Portugal, the average rental is 600 to 700 euros. And in other countries we have a minimum wage that you can make a reasonable living. And I draw the attention to a detail. People- it's not just the unemployed who don't have money. The people who work and receive the minimum wage, and those are thousands here in Portugal too, now, it can be said that most are poor. That's all... I agree with this idea of unemployment, in terms of taxes, of uniformity at European level. So, there is no such decalage from Portugal to Luxembourg, to Spain.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M5. We now move to PTFG2_F4 which will run out of battery soon.

PTFG2_F4: So I am of the opinion that all policies that seek to integrate people into the society are valid even if they have costs. Therefore, job creation policies, even if they have costs, are valid. First, because employment will boost the economy, it will make people proactive, they will probably be less prone to diseases because there are diseases that arise due to lack of physical activity, diabetes, rheumatological even depressions. It brings benefits, working brings benefits, no matter how much people say, "then let the sick do the work". No, work brings benefits, even if it is having to bathe every day, get dressed and go out and get along and socialize. Even if that's what it's for. Therefore, this is a less {negative} side, health expenses because the person creates another dynamic and is not so susceptible to diseases. Then people will contribute with taxes to economic improvements.

So even if there is an investment, and it should be noted that benefits are a thing of the European Community, and these policies of job creation could be only in the country. Therefore, it would bring spending to the country, but it would bring advantages. I think so that it’s beneficial and that, yes, any country should integrate all policies to boost employment.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F4. But do you think, or would you agree, with a European mechanism, shall we say, to combat unemployment, or to unemployment benefit, for instance, at European level.

PTFG2_F4: Unemployment benefit, but with policies of hmm of activity. That is, the person should search for {employment} and with some limits. So, the person doesn't get used to it. Because we always look for the comfort zone and if it is more comfortable for us to be at home, and if we don’t need {to work}, of course we will always try to be in a more comfortable position. I think so that there should really be unemployment policies and aid, but with a lot of consideration in how they are applied.

M: Okay, PTFG2_F4. Thank you. Hmm we then have PTFG2_F3 too and if meanwhile there is no more additional contributions, we finish this part of the session. Yes? [Everyone agrees]. Go ahead, PTFG2_F3.

PTFG2_F3: Hmm in relation to unemployment there could be a policy at European level. But I also agree with what PTFG2_F4, I agree with what she says. The unemployed should be proactive. There should also be a show of willingness not to settle down. I don't know, do community work. That there are some, but it's getting there and signing a sheet of paper, according to what I know or what I think I know. It's signing a sheet of paper and then leave. But work for the benefit of the community, that is, if they did several jobs, they would have more perks. To have a basic living wage and extras for every job they could do.

Should there be European funds for this? Yes, why not, why not. But I agree with everything that's been said. But I don't have anything else to add.

M: So, on that note, we move to our final questions. Hmm we have been discussing issues around the European Union today, or with the European Union as a umbrella, we have addressed different areas such as social disparities, the economy, etc., and what we ask now is whether you think there are other areas that you consider important and relevant within this framework of the European Union, and relations between countries of the European Union, obligations between EU countries, etc., which have not been addressed.

PTFG2_M2: In my case, I don't think so. I think we've addressed the fundamental [cough], forgive me. We approach the fundamentals because everything revolves around the economy and from there you can have a better life, at least in the system in which we live today. In this case I think so, we have addressed the issues well and I think we answered to each one questions in our own way, about what we think on the issues. Maybe were more of these sessions [laughs]. And that's all from me.

[01:30:14]

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M2. Thank you. We then have the registration of PTFG2_F4 and don’t know if we had other registrations. I don't know if PTFG2_M5 either... [PTFG2_M5 signals positively]. OK. I give the floor to PTFG2_F4, then to PTFG2_M5. And I appealed to your sense of brevity, please.

PTFG2_F4: The economic part has been explored here. It was explored in the event of disasters, how we could have mutual help in that case, but what was not explored, nor spoken of, is the cases of domestic violence, I am not referring to in the case of couples. But in the domestic violence of children, from parents to children, from children to parents, to the elderly. I think it’s a topic that (short pause) that I would like one day to be debated and I think there is still so much to talk about.

M: And by exploring this a little more, very briefly, do you think that, for example, that there should be a European program or a program of cooperation between countries to solve this problem or is it a matter for the member states?

PTFG2_F4: Hmm I think it's not so much talked about and there should be more rigid (response?), I would even say exemplary hmm for these cases. Domestic violence has increased a lot both in the context of parents to children with home schooling and telework, among couples there were also many more complaints, and I think that this should be talked more about and there should be more intervention policies. Both at European level and at national level. But yes, at European level. Because I think when you mess with Europe you get triggered to act more. That's my opinion. When it's just our problem, let's hide it with some other news, we're going sweep it under the rug and it's gone.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F4. Thank you for your input. So, we still have PTFG2_M5. Go ahead, PTFG2_M5.

PTFG2_M5: What I liked- I enjoyed this informal conversation between everyone, and what I liked to see would be a discussion about the Schengen area, about migration from outside Europe. Immigrants who come with the boats because there are at European level, countries that accept {migrants} and others that don’t. And there is a war to see who gets refugees from countries ( ). And I would more policies at European level, at social level because I think that what we do here is little and if everyone unites maybe society gets richer, both in money and at the social level.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_M5. So, we'll finish... [meanwhile PTFG2_F3 makes a signal to speak]. Oh! We have one last intervention here. Then go ahead, PTFG2_F3.

PTFG2_F3: I wish there were more active hospital-level programs for disability and rare diseases, mental illness. That there would be more exchange between different countries because some have more experience in one field, others have in other fields. And that there might be more support. Because there are a lot of people at national level asking for help so that they can be assisted in another country. If the European Union had a program- perhaps it does, but lacks knowledge, {a wider program} to help in these kinds of diseases more... different, let's call them that. That's it, that's it.

M: Thank you, PTFG2_F3. So, as I said, we'll end our discussion. I want to thank you once again for your availability. As I said, if you are interested in following the developments of the project, you can visit our website, that is in those documents that you received and can always contact me or the team that is leading the project at the University in Darmstadt. So once again thank you for your availability.

PTFG2_M5: Does this project have anything to do with the European Parliament?

M: No, but I'm just going to stop the recording and then we can talk a little bit about this. Is that all right? Again, thank you so much for your availability.