MA: Do your thing. Okay, wait a minute. This is the first day so we always have to check that everything is working, but okay, you have a piece of paper in front of you, you can choose either the stripes or the Think in Ink. Please write on that: what are the first three thoughts that come to mind when you hear European Union or EU?

NLFG3_F1: Three words, right? Yes, it’s because I see all of you writing.

M: Yes, do your thing. One minute left. If you have less, it's no problem.

(long pause)

M: Yes, okay, then we'll go around the table now. So, we will see what people have written down. NLFG3_F1, would you like to start?

NLFG3_F1: Okay, I have a collaboration. Do I have to explain them too?

M: Yes, please.

NLFG3_F1: Well, collaboration, because the EU of course in the end is just a collaboration between countries, so also that kind of positive feeling with it, of that kind of cooperation to do something new. But also, very complicated. It's not just the structure itself, but also just, of course, some complicated kinds of things, so how do you deal with the balance of power and also how people relate to that is very complicated. And finally, I would like to mention underestimation, because I think that the EU is underestimated in many areas, both politically and economically. So, people don't realise how much power it actually has, and also that the EU very often underestimates itself and therefore takes less action than it could.

M: Thank you. What do you mean by a balance of power?

NLFG3_F1: Eh between the different countries, but I think also from the citizen to the EU, say from the citizen.

M: Because the citizen in that regard also has power?

NLFG3_F1: Yes, of course, it is also just, well, very indirectly, but also quite directly through the European elections.

NLFG3_F2: I have several countries and business cooperation. Several countries, because it is a large group in terms of countries. And business cooperation is, say, about, yes, cooperation between countries. It is quite businesslike. That, in fact.

M: What do you mean by businesslike?

NLFG3_F2: Well, just arranging everything and such like we are, with the power and things like that.

M: Would you please state your name before you speak?

NLFG3_F3: Well, cooperation agreement between European countries. That's the first thing I wrote down. Then, security regarding the wars. In parentheses, the peace treaty and the euro. Well, that was it.

M: Would you please explain them? Why?

NLFG3_F3: Yes, I have mainly written down what I know, so I know that there are some countries from the European, from Europe. They have joined the European Union. Hence the first one is the collaboration agreement. Security, because it was created after the second world war, eh with the idea to prevent that in the future. And the euro, eh is a currency that arose from that and that many countries from the European Union use.

M: Yes, thank you. NLFG3_F4?

NLFG3_F4: Well, the first thing that came to my mind was the song festival to be honest. All different, yes watched yesterday, (countries?). But that's when I really feel like a European, feel a bit connected to the European Union and the various Member States, so then I always get a bit of an insight into oh, yes, they are all members, or not, if you're Australia. And secondly, Brussels came into my head, because I always find it a bit cumbersome that they move the political office from Brussels to Strasbourg. And that of course is what Brussels is for me. It’s what comes to my mind when it comes to the European Union and the political soil of the EU. And then thirdly, I had a healthy dose of optimism, because I think it's quite cumbersome and you have to be quite optimistic to be active in the European Union and to want to believe in people who are working on it, to get all the noses in the same direction in terms of decisions. But if they really want something, then they are also very powerful and they can enforce a lot of things with legislation, for example, the 3G that we have everywhere in terms of mobile phone use and range, and also the nitrogen crisis, which came about a bit because of standards that were also enforced in the European Union, so yes, that's what I wanted to say.

M: But do you see yourself as part of it?

NLFG3_F4: From the European Union?

M: Yes, because you did say THEY.

NLFG3_F4: Yes, on the one hand, I do, on the other hand, I don't. For example, in terms of legislation and so on and in terms of their decision-making, I feel quite outside of it. But on the other hand, I do feel very European because of, yes, people I know in Europe and with travelling, and things like that.

M: Thank you all for these interesting comments. Now the next question: how would you describe your overall position or feeling toward the EU? Since you all say that it is a collaboration. Actually, that came up in all four, but is that positive? Is it negative?

NLFG3_F1: Is it more a feeling? Or a position?

M: Both are allowed, or a feeling, or a point of view. Whatever you like. You don't have to write it down, you can just share your thoughts.

NLFG3_F1: Yes, I think my thoughts are very mixed or so, because on the one hand, of course, it is very positive, with indeed the euro, and the 3G. I mean, what have they not managed to do. It is of course very cool. But on the other hand, it is also quite often quite clear that they are just very complicated. And because it's so complicated, it's very difficult to make quick decisions, for example. So, then you start to wonder: should you be looking for another form or another way to make this cooperation more efficient, while still remaining within the European Union, through reform?

M: Does anyone want to respond to that?

(long pause)

NLFG3_F4: I would like to respond to that. Yes, I think I agree, that in me, the feeling I have when I think of the European Union is that it is very technocratic. Decisions are made by very smart people, and they don't really think about what people want and what the citizens think. Yes, about what different countries think, but that is more about economics and money and monetary union, so to speak. And the moment I have a say, for example in the parliamentary elections where Frans Timmermans was to become European Commissioner, a German is then put forward in a backroom, you know. That sort of thing makes me think oh yes, you think you have influence, but then at the end of the day, it's all a bit-

(short pause)

NLFG3_F4: -the influence doesn't seem to be as big I think, even if you hold elections.

M: Does anyone else have another point? Is the EU beneficial for the Netherlands or not?

NLFG3_F2: Positively, I think so.

M: Yes? Can you explain?

NLFG3_F2: No, I don't know how to say it. But I think so, my feeling says so.

NLFG3_F3: Yes, I think it is very beneficial. I think that economically speaking it is also quite profitable to take part in, so you are enclosing certain security. You can see that now with the war, you are one united front, so you are not on your own as a small frog country. Only I, I have, I miss. Yes, I know very little about the European Union. So, what exactly is going on there and what they are talking about and what they have decided. I see it pop up on the news pages, but it all seems to pass me by. So, I don't have the idea that citizens are very actively involved.

[00:10:23]

M: Do you agree that we are one united front? As NLFG3_F3 indicates?

NLFG3_F1: I think we are outwardly, but not inwardly. I think, in a way, it is often the case that with such a war, it is indeed very often presented as oh this is the decision we made. But I think, and I also guess, that it is good that you have an internal discussion about it, of course.

M: So, you're saying inside it is not a united front?

NLFG3_F1: No-

(short pause)

NLFG3_F1: -but I mean, like in the Netherlands, we are also not, of course, one united front.

NLFG3_F4: I also think that we are not really one united front, because I think that is also visible from the outside. I think there is a clear division between what Eastern European countries want and what Western European countries want, also differences between West and South, and then also in countries themselves. Of course, the difference is quite big, for example, what Hungary wants and what Poland wants, is of course quite different from what we in the Netherlands, I think, generally want. So, I think there is quite a difference in what different countries want from Europe and that they all want security and cooperation, but at the same time, they also want the space to be able to do their own thing, so to speak, on certain topics.

M: I'll close this part for now. Let's move on to a scenario: scenario one. Imagine that there is a major natural disaster in one of the EU countries, like an earthquake or a flood or a forest fire. How should the EU react?

NLFG3_F4: I have a question. Is it in an ideal situation? Or in a current situation?

M: You can explain them both.

(long pause)

NLFG3_F3: For me yes, a little bit. I have the idea that at a time when something like this is happening in a country within the EU, then I do have the idea that it remains in your own country. I do not get the idea that we as the European Union are saying: well, guys, let's all go there, let's drop the water if there is a forest fire, or we'll sort it out together if the worst comes to the worst. Then, look, the idea is, of course, very nice if we all, say, support that one country, but I don't think it works like that and I don't think it's necessary. Unless it is really-

(short pause)

NLFG3_F3: -Or at least, the Netherlands is quite a prosperous country. We are quite well provided for, so if an earthquake were to happen, I think we would be able to salvage quite a lot ourselves, and of course, there are also countries that have less of a provision, but if they ask for it, it will probably come their way. But I don't think we should do it together because we are a European Union, because those two things are separate.

M: Does anyone want to respond to that?

NLFG3_F1: Well, I think first of all, I don't agree, because if you look at Ukraine, for example, or if another major disaster just happened, then the first reaction is to just send a lot of money and a lot of help at that moment. But I think it indeed depends very much on how big the disaster is, because if you look, for example, at the floods in Germany and Limburg and Belgium last summer, then of course in the end, yes, if countries can solve it themselves, they will. But I think the moment a country would not be able to solve it themselves, a lot of money and resources would go there at that very moment, but only if there is a real crisis.

M: So, what do you see as a real crisis?

NLFG3_F1: Well, I think if the media shows it like that.

(short pause)

NLFG3_F3 Yes, indeed, when I think about it, it's also how the media presents it. Yes, because if the media trivialises it, so to speak, then we think oh, and then we move on to the backbiting, so to speak. That's actually quite strange, that we are manipulated in this way in what we see and what we hear. And actually, this is how our opinions are fed, because something can be much more extreme than it is made out to be. Yes, I find that quite shocking. That is what came to my mind.

M: So, the Netherlands, should it provide help or not?

NLFG3_F1: I actually don't know whether that in this scenario or whether I would, I think, make much difference whether it is a European country or not. I think that if you have a crisis in another country and it is also very much presented as a crisis, that people then, well, for example, in the case of Ukraine, for example, people are very much inclined to help after all, even if it is not an EU country.

NLFG3_F4: At the same time, I also find it a bit remarkable, because last summer, for example, we had the floods in Limburg and then later, very naively, I found out that this was also the case in Germany and in Belgium, of course, and that actually the floods were much more intense there than in the Netherlands because the Netherlands has the Room for the River projects. That is why a lot of rivers have been adapted for flood risk and this is not the case at all in Belgium. So, that actually shows that sometimes people take great care of their own country up to the border and then across it, they can sort it out themselves and we don't help. Whereas, in my opinion, in terms of these preventive measures, we make sure that the rivers don't overflow and water nuisance through rainfall-

(short pause)

NLFG3_F4: -or a lot of rain, so to speak, it's better to solve this together, so that it is not one country that is very flooded and another one is less. Preventing together is better than stopping at the border, while all three countries are affected.

M: So, you actually think there should be more cooperation?

NLFG3_F4: On some topics, I think so.

M: Do you agree?

NLFG3_F2: Yes.

M: But okay, so then we know how the EU would react, but how should other EU countries react? What do you expect from another EU country?

(short pause)

NLFG3_F3: But I think, yes, we the West are richer and more prosperous anyway. So, I think we are the first ones to put money in and send aid troops, and of course, it would be nice if an Eastern Bloc country would do the same, but the question is: can you expect that from a less prosperous country? Somehow you do hope this. But yes, they do have to sort out their own roads first, so to speak, literally. And then I think: yes, can we expect them to contribute as much as we would? Is that realistic?

NLFG3_F4: I think that, in certain respects, the Netherlands has a great deal of knowledge when it comes to water and water management and so on. However, at the same time, climate change is also making it warmer, and we have quite a few cities, where there is more and more, say, heat stress in these cities, and I think that the southern countries can help us with that. So, in that sense, I don't know if that will happen, but maybe that transfer of knowledge could be beneficial to us when it comes to urban heat islands, say in cities and such, I can imagine. Yes, in the Netherlands we don't deal with heat very well and in countries like Spain and France they have been struggling with it for a long time, so maybe they could help us with that. Maybe with siestas [laughter, the others agree too]. A different rhythm, yes.

M: So, what is necessary for this cooperation to happen?

(long pause)

NLFG3_F1: I actually think that what NLFG3_F4 just said is making an important point. That it is sort of made very clear that we do not only give everything, but we can also be the ones to receive help. So, there actually is a great deal of knowledge that is useful. And now it is often seen as, oh, you know, the North-Western countries, they only need to constantly pump money and knowledge and everything to the other side. But of course, there is also a yes, mutual benefit.

M: And who should take care of/provide that?

NLFG3_F1: Well, I think in any way that the EU could involve people a bit more. They should look at it like: well, how can you make sure that people know what is happening? And that too, of course, they can also partly outsource that to national governments, who can also provide more information to people through education in schools about what is happening.

M: And how should the Netherlands react in this case?

NLFG3_F1: On what exactly?

M: On the, if there was a natural disaster, no matter if it was in the Netherlands or in the EU.

(long pause)

[00:19:51]

MA: The question is: what do you expect from the Dutch government if there is a natural disaster either in the Netherlands or in another EU country? Whether it's Greece, Belgium or the Netherlands. What do you expect from the Netherlands?

NLFG3_F3: Well, if I look at how the Netherlands has reacted to certain situations over the years like I think it was an economic crisis in Turkey or Greece, I don't know anymore. At that time, the Netherlands put in quite a lot of money to get them through this crisis. So, I think that if we look at what the Netherlands has done over the years, say with its, for its surrounding countries, then I think that the Netherlands would at least do SOMETHING? The Netherlands would send aid and helpers. I think that if there is a really big fire, so to speak, that they will send out the helicopters and the vehicles because it is something, in my opinion, that we have done over the years. We are not a country that leans back in that area.

NLFG3_F1: I want to respond to that, because I think that that is indeed very true that indeed the Netherlands does do things and I think what they are doing now especially very much is indeed just providing the real help that is needed at that time and I think in an ideal situation they would then also look, if for example there is a flood in another country, to then look at how can we, say, help those countries to adapt their, well, their environment, so that those natural disasters can be prevented in the future or just less intense so to speak.

NLFG3_F4: I don't know to what extent it is wise of the Netherlands if it concerns adaptations in an area, to interfere in another country because very often you see that then the country is going to say: oh, we are going to help that country. However, they don't know the context on the ground at all and how best to go about it, but often the population itself knows best how to adapt to such circumstances.

NLFG3_F1: I DO think that it makes a big difference, whether the Netherlands is going to help Indonesia or just in their neighbouring countries, to do things. And that there too, the Netherlands does not necessarily have to go and say, oh this is how it should be done. However, they can simply enter into a dialogue with people, precisely in order to enter into that cooperation, to see whether you can come to an arrangement together.

NLFG3_F4: So that it is not development aid.

NLFG3_F1: No, no, because yes, they are just, they are neighbouring countries. Or well, I think with Eastern Bloc countries it would be a bit different but ideally you would have the same relationship, I think.

M: Do you feel a responsibility to help personally, to do something yourself?

(long pause)

NLFG3_F4: For me, this has changed a bit through time, I would say. When I was in secondary school, I was in a project in which I was engaged with fellow European people and then I felt quite connected to Europe because I also knew people, say from other countries. So, then you feel more connected with people from those countries. Well, that actually declined a bit over the past few years. When thinking about Europe, I thought it doesn’t matter. I don't know anyone anyway and I don't feel that connected to it. But now I am active again, in a kind of European network with peers and I feel more and more connected with Europe. Also, for example, there are people in Ukraine whom I now know, and I feel connected with them again, because they are peers who study the same as I do and then suddenly have to deal with a war. So, then I have the urge to help and to contribute where I can, so to speak. But this, this has sort of shifted over the years. So, if I'm more active with people from Europe who are, let's say, a bit like me, then that inclination is greater than not being there at all.

NLFG3_F1: Contribute in what way?

M: That's up to you.

NLFG3_F1: So, would that be by going there and helping or by taking people in?

M: That is possible. It can also be done in other ways.

NLFG3_F1: Yeah, I just think, I don't know, I don't know if that would matter, whether a country is an EU country or not.

M: Okay, so with you the country doesn't matter. You will always help?

NLFG3_F1: Yes, well, they are still people, so to speak. I do think, if it is a country which is closer to you, which is a bit more like your country, that you are inclined to help more quickly or that you do know more people, I think that is also very true.

(short pause)

NLFG3_F2: I would help where it is needed and where I can.

M: How?

NLFG3_F2: Like you do have those money things. I think I would do that. I wouldn't go very quickly to a country to help, but like you also have that they collect items, so I would help with that. More that kind of stuff.

NLFG3_F3: Yes, I would indeed do the more practical thing too, collecting items. I recently followed along with such a collection point, for example now for supplies for Ukraine, and I think that, well, yes, this was purely on behalf of a school assignment, but if you, if the agenda allows me to, then I think, there would be, those are places where I would feel comfortable to commit to. I wouldn't go to the country very quickly. I'm not much of a vacationer. So, whether it's for a crisis or not, I don't like travelling there either way. Um, and yes, it's also just what kind of living situation I'm in at the moment. If I had a very big house, I would say, well I'll make a few beds, so to speak. However, I live at home with my parents, so I’m already more limited. But, for example, recently there were children who really wanted to organise a fundraising campaign for Ukraine and I stimulate and support that, I really enjoy doing that. In this way, I can contribute a little.

M: So, do you think some EU countries should do a bit more than others?

(long pause)

NLFG3_F4: Yes, I think in the current situation, you do have certain bearers of the European Union that take more initiative than other countries. So, countries like Germany and France, they are, I think, the building blocks of the European Union to some extent. And I think because they also have more say and if they want something, the rest will usually follow. That's the idea, at least that's how it seems to me.

M: Do you agree?

(short pause)

NLFG3_F1: I think it also has to do with what NLFG3_F3 said earlier that it is, well, you know, if a country has to repair its own roads first, then can you ask a country to help somewhere else, with rebuilding a road, for example? So, I think in that sense that there are just certain countries that can just give more, so that well, it's easier for them to give more. And the question is, is that justified? Yes, that also became a kind of ethical dilemma. We don't necessarily have an answer to that, I think.

(long pause)

NLFG3_F3: Yes, I am just thinking, because somehow when I hear all this, and when I look at the people with the most say, I intuitively think, actually the European Union is a bit unfairly divided. When I hear all this, I think just like with the song festival you have the big five who are in the final, in the European Union you also have a kind of big five who determine everything, for the, for the yes, I always call them goat countries but-

(short pause)

NLFG3_F3: -I don't know [laughter] the less prosperous countries. And the funny thing is when I, I was also raised with watching the song festival and I never had the idea that this was a part of it. Because last year when I was at school, the question arose of which countries are part of the European Union? I thought that included many more countries than I normally see on TV or something. I thought, oh, and somewhere I wondered: is the EU actually useful? The moment you let the big five rule, so to speak. That is a question that comes to mind.

M: Does anyone want to respond to that?

NLFG3_F1: Well because, yes, I think that this is indeed a point that people just really know very little about the EU, and it is just very far away from them. And I think, for example, that you might not hear as much about the eastern countries, but they are definitely in the EU. And as far as I know, they also have, because I don't know exactly, but they have more or less the same say in the EU as well. They of course have people in the Council, the Commission and the Parliament, and all the other representations, which makes that they are really represented there. But this is also something you just don't hear about, because, well, you don't get to know so much about it, because it has less to do with you, I think, which brings you back to the newscasting a bit.

[00:30:05]

M: Someone does anyone want to make a final comment on this scenario?

NLFG3_F2: No.

M: Then we go to scenario two. If an economic crisis, such as the euro crisis, happens again and some countries are adversely affected or hit harder than others, how should the Dutch government or the Netherlands respond?

(short pause)

NLFG3_F1: That's a tricky one.

(long pause)

NLFG3_F4: I don't really know anything about the European economy, to be honest, and in general I'm not very interested in it either. Maybe I should be more interested than I am, but I would say, it depends a bit on the context. So, let's say a country has gone crazy and taken out a lot of high loans etc. I don't know, or if they want to retire people at 40, then I think I would be a bit less generous than if it were due to other factors.

(short pause)

NLFG3_F1: So, I think that's just really complicated. I think that just goes to show how complicated the EU can be when you look at the economic aspect and the fact that these are just very different countries that are still linked by one currency. So, I think these are always very difficult considerations. And yes, I think that it is a good thing, I do think it is important to help each other in times like these. But what NLFG3_F4 also says, it is just a matter of attaching strict rules to it, so you don't just keep throwing money at it or just help people out more and more. But in the end, I do think it's best if everyone gets out of it together but it's, we should keep it real. I think that shows how difficult it can be.

M: Would this also apply the other way around? So, if the Netherlands receives financial support. Should there also be rules attached to that?

NLFG3_F1: Yes, yes, sure, if we too have done stupid things, then we should be allowed to get our asses kicked for that too.

M: Does anyone else want to respond to that? How should other EU countries react if the Netherlands is affected?

NLFG3_F3: Yes, I'm thinking about the economic crisis of, but then that was 2008. Was that it? Yes, I'm just thinking back, and I think that, if we look within our country, a very large part of the population had no idea that an economic crisis was taking place at that time and how it affected people personally and how things, how families were broken up, how companies failed and how their country was doing in general, whether it concerns the Netherlands or other countries. I think that's especially important, that the inside of the country looks at what's happening in it. That there is more clarity about when it comes to financial support that goes to other countries and the support that is received. Nevertheless, I think that financial support is not enough, because it is a structural problem, which recurs once every few years, so my idea is perhaps very easy to say, but I think it would be much more valuable if everyone puts their heads together and simply drew up a plan together of how we are going to do this. Instead of throwing so many million at them and them throwing so many million at us again. I think it is also very important for the European Union to be clear about where it is possible to invest its bigger money, so to speak. Look, do you do that for the prosperity of your own country? That, of course, is very important. If you say you want to build the biggest, the biggest theatre in the capital so that there will be more tourism, I think that is a lesser priority, so to speak. So, I think that a bit of a priority list can be made there as well.

M: So, there should be a distinction between different countries?

NLFG3_F3: Well, I think that a plan should be made that applies to all countries. I think that there is quite a lot of distinction at the moment, everyone, of course, decides for themselves whether to invest in this or in that, and I think that we should look more at what are the most important things? Well, those are your citizens, among other things. Well, the economic field, and then you look at what we should invest in. I think good roads are more important than a newly painted Eiffel Tower, so to speak. Yes, that needs to be done from time to time, it also needs a lick of paint, so to speak, but then I would say, well that's just like when, what's the name of that thing, the Notre Dame burned down. Then all of a sudden everything went there, so I thought: well, guys, why are we as a country investing in rebuilding the Notre Dame?

M: Does anyone want to respond to that?

NLFG3_F3: Yes, that, yes, that was, yes, I had a bit of an error there that I thought: yes, why are we spending so much million on the renovation of the Rotterdam? I mean, eh Notre Dame, then I think: yes, I think it is a beautiful building on the picture on Google, but personally I have nothing to do with it. Then I think, well when I look at my own country, there is enough we can do ourselves here. Not on my list of priorities.

NLFG3_F1: I would like to respond to this, because I do indeed think that in that respect, centralisation could help a great deal, with indeed countries that are not doing so well economically or the ones that are making somewhat risky choices. But I think there is also a downside, which is quite a bit, well, not a danger, but of course, it is. Well, you mentioned quite a few examples of things that you consider important, for example, good roads. Well, things that you think are important, but of course, it's not just the Netherlands that sets the rules for what they think is important and I think that makes a very big difference because there are such economically diverse countries. It means that it's very difficult for Greece and Norway to come to one conclusion about what's important in the country, because, well, they're just very different countries, in many areas, of course, but also economically, that Norway might pursue a very different economic policy, which is very beneficial for them. But that same policy may be very unfavourable to Greece. So, I think that's a really big challenge, right there.

NLFG3_F3: Yes, I think so too. [laughter]

M: So, then there should be a difference in how different EU countries react in a financial crisis?

NLFG3_F1: Well, I find that really difficult. Yes, I did take some economics courses, but maybe they do understand that.

M: That doesn't matter, it's your own opinion.

NLFG3_F1: Yes, ultimately, I do think that it is necessary for the EU to give countries some autonomy over their own economy because I also think that it is just, well, I guess it is not possible to have one, say you don't have a one-size-fits-all economic policy.

M: Does anyone want to respond to that?

(long pause)

M: Okay, thank you. Then I'll move on to the other scenario. The last scenario. Remember that there are inequalities here between countries and between people within that country. Should the EU have a common programme or fund to reduce social inequalities?

NLFG3_F1: Between countries or within countries?

M: Both.

NLFG3_F4: Is that fund only aimed at combating symptoms or does it also tackle the causes of inequality?

M: You could do both.

NLFG3_F1: I think I would say yes anyway. [coughing participant] Sorry, are you OK?

NLFG3_F2: No, but yes, it will be fine.

NLFG3_F1: So yes, I think that I would personally like that very much, but I don't think that that is a realistic, or well, in a certain sense realistic, but I think that that is difficult again, because of the fact that you just have a lot of different ideologies in the EU. So again, I think that if you say well, let’s solve inequality, you then very quickly run into the practical issue of what does that mean, and that people interpret that differently.

(long pause)

[00:39:34]

NLFG3_F3: I find it a very complex question [laughter], because I mean, when I look at inequality, then one of the first words that come to mind are discrimination, racism, the distinction between rich and poor, those are all things that come to mind. Then I think yes, the best thing would of course be if none of that existed, but I think that it is inevitable. Plus, there are also countries that express a very clear opinion about something. Look at homosexuality. There are simply countries where you cannot be homosexual and cannot express it, and even within our European Union, there are countries that simply accept it less, and do not really tolerate it. How are you going to rectify this? You could, of course, offer a certain programme at schools where you learn from an early age that it is there and that it is okay, that you are who you are, but I wonder if that is, say, an answer to this question of whether that is a fitting option. And you also must agree within a country and there are countries that just say: we don't think that's okay. And there are countries that just say: okay.

M: Is there anyone who would like to respond to that?

NLFG3_F4: I think in terms of economic inequality, you cannot solve that with a fund. In that case, you ultimately must switch to a different economic system in order to really solve total inequality, say in an economic sense. And I think in, say because you can then explain inequality on different levels. Then in terms of social inequality or discrimination and so on, I think, yes, you know, that also depends a bit on each country. So, I think that we as a country discriminate against different people and different population groups than they do in Poland, for example, so I don't really see what a fund at the European level can contribute to that. Perhaps it could be a kind of, what do you call it, a kind of, what do you call it, I can't remember the word. That you get together and then-

(short pause)

NLFG3_F4: -a think tank! What if there is a kind of think tank that can work and that then says oh, we work, we solve it this way, maybe you can also look at this. However, ultimately, I think that those forms of inequality should be solved domestically because a country knows, I think, in the end, the best. Let's say they can best check, OK, what are the causes of this inequality? So, I wonder to what extent, say Europe, or the European Union can determine at a super local level what is needed. And I think, if you're talking about countries in Europe, then I think in the economic inequality you also have things like inflation etc. So, say in Poland, they earn less, but products are also worth less money. So, then I think: yes, I find that a difficult question, I think. That's what it comes down to.

(short pause)

M: We can make it more specific. If we were to take unemployment as an example. Should the EU have a European scheme to tackle unemployment in all countries? Funded by all EU member states?

NLFG3_F1: I think it would be a very ambitious plan, but I think that in itself, I see it more in the power of the EU than if you talk about social inequality, for example, because the EU has quite a lot to do with how the economy is arranged, and the EU, of course, has quite a lot of power over the economy. If you only look at the euro, which of course is also by the EU. Well, the EU is also difficult because what is the EU, but I think that it is a yes, I think that if they would really set their sights on it, they would have a very ingenious plan, I think that it would be more realistic than talking about social inequality.

(short pause)

M: Does anyone want to respond to that? Or have any ideas of their own on how the EU should respond?

(long pause)

NLFG3_F3: I wonder sometimes, if that, if we look at unemployment, for example, you wonder a bit. Yes, I think that perhaps I am not too EU-minded as a person, because then I think yes, if there is a lot of unemployment here, for example, what does Belgium have to do with it or what can Belgium mean in that regard? Look, if you are indeed going to create a financial level, a certain pot, and distribute it very fairly among the countries, then perhaps that would help. On the other hand, jobs are not going to fall from the sky. Yes, yes, I think then go. I think this is a national political problem and I think we must solve it nationally, not on a European level because I think that work, employment, and unemployment are different everywhere. I mean, there are countries that work from nine to two, and they then have a nice break from two to nine the next morning. Yes, there are cultural differences in that, and I mean there are also countries where there are far fewer women, for example, that is also a cultural difference. Yes, I think everyone must make up and solve that for themselves, each country for itself. Of course, it would be nice if, for example, a country said: oh dear, I can't work this out, that they could fall back on the EU and say: oh dear, would you look at this with us? That would be nice. The question is whether they will do that, maybe there is also a sense of pride. Or is that not discussed in politics? Is that not an issue? Yes, I don't know about that. Can you just ask for an appeal if you don't know?

M: Do you agree?

NLFG3_F1: I don't think I quite agree, because I think unemployment is precisely a problem which may be solved more easily if there are more of you. Because imagine that in a country like the Netherlands there are actually too few people to work for us, a kind of surplus of jobs. And then, well, of course, you can see if you can design some kind of a programme to see if a country that has a labour shortage, with a country that has a labour surplus, that they can exchange that a bit so that they can help each other and maybe solve several problems at once.

NLFG3_F4: I just don't quite see how that would work in practice. Look, say you have a work shortage, say too few employees in the Netherlands and you have too many employees in Greece. They're not going to move to the Netherlands. So how do you solve that? You don't move people around, do you? You have seasonal workers there now, I don't know, I don't think so. I don't see that working in practice.

NLFG3_F2: I think it is still quite possible that people do want to move for work because that is, you see that a lot, say, outside of the Netherlands quite a lot of people come here. And it is also only for work. And often it's the men who come here first, then go to work and then the rest come along too. So, I think it is possible. Suppose we have a shortage, that other countries, say, want to cooperate. I think that if we go abroad, that it would be less.

NLFG3_F3: But imagine, hey, we have staff shortages and then all these people from abroad come and work for us. Hey, that will give them a job. But then the next problem arises, namely overcrowding, too little living space. That costs money too because you have to house it all. Well, we are also a smaller country so we just, we are densely populated. It is already a bit tight. It's already a bit of an improvisation sometimes, so then you go-

(short pause)

NLFG3_F3: -you solve a problem, and you create a new one. And then I think that if you have solved the problem of housing, then the next problem will arise, because imagine you go there with your family, they reproduce and suddenly there are three generations of Greeks from a certain family line here in the Netherlands. And then at some point, there will be a shortage of jobs again, because they will all go back to study and work and you will have to finance their studies again. Yes, I, yes, it would be nice if we could solve this with 'I'll go there and then it's fixed, but I do think that that is unrealistic and also something you shouldn't want in the long run.

NLFG3_F1: I would like to respond [laughter], because that was just a random example to show that things might be possible. So, it was not specific, no, that I am saying this, it is not a very well-thought-out plan. So, I understand that there are quite a few problems with it [laughter]. But of course, I think that, well, that sort of thing. I think that if you, if you work very well together as the EU, then you can also think. Well, you know as an example, more people are working online, you could also, say things like that. Say, you have, you are in the monetary union, that makes it much easier to, for example, well, then you stay in Greece, but then you happen to work for a company that is based in the Netherlands. So, I think that's kind of what makes it interesting to have a broader view and to look not only at traditional solutions but also, because you have more people, more countries, to see what kind of creative solutions you can come up with.

[00:49:55]

NLFG3_F4: At first, I wanted to say, oh, but suppose you have all these people from, say, other Member States, and they go and work in the Netherlands for a higher job, then you have a sort of brain drain there, so all the clever people leave, which in turn is at the expense of the further development of such a country, which then makes it very difficult for such a country to come out of unemployment or an economic crisis. So, I don't know if that's the most optimal scenario. So, what I wanted to say was this: I think that Europe would have to switch to a different economic system. But that's a whole other discussion, but I don't think this current economic system is sustainable in this context.

(short pause)

M: Okay, thank you. Now we've talked mostly about how that unemployment would be remedied in the Netherlands, but if the unemployment were in another EU country, would the Netherlands have to help? How?

NLFG3_F3: Sending Dutch people there, of course [much laughter from everyone]. No, well, that depends a bit. Look, on the one hand, it would be possible, of course, that we as Dutchies, then we would also be somewhat thinned out, so to speak, go there, but not every EU country has mastered the world language English. There are quite a few countries, mainly in the direction of the Eastern Bloc, whose languages you just can't understand, so that makes it more difficult again. So, then you would have to look at it from a distance to see how you could help. Yes, then, I think, when it comes to unemployment, throwing money at it is not necessarily an option. Yes, temporarily, until it runs out again and then you have the same problem again, so I don't know how you would solve that.

NLFG3_F4: I do want to respond to this. I think that at the moment it is not at all, say, obvious that the Netherlands is going to solve a work shortage somewhere else since we already have too few people in the hospitality industry and in healthcare etcetera. We simply have too few people who can fill all the jobs here, so it seems rather unrealistic to me that we, as an ageing population, are going to help another country. So, I think in this context we are the victims, so to speak.

NLFG3_F1: The problem was unemployment, wasn't it?

NLFG3_F4: Yes, but,

NLFG3_F1: The problem is precisely that we have too little in the Netherlands, which is the opposite problem.

NLFG3_F4: Realistically, that's not going to happen, that we have work (short pause) too many people who are unemployed right?

NLFG3_F1: No, I know, but that is why I was going to ask for another country just now, because if you are in another country-

NLFG3_F4: Surely you are not going to send the Dutch people away when you already have a shortage of staff here?

NLFG3_F1: -I think there is just a bit of a misunderstanding. I would now like to make another point because I think that there are of course many more solutions than just shuffling people around. Well, what the EU is already doing quite a lot of, you know, larger infrastructure projects. These are for example, also things that can provide jobs. So, I think the EU could play a role in that as well, or is playing a role already, in helping an economy get going, by financing things by giving loans so that people can find work again and so that countries if they use the money well, can also help their own economy get going and thereby helping people finding a job.

NLFG3_F4: A general remark. Just something that, to come back to the very first question. It strikes me that when it comes to Europe, it is always about money, and then I tend to lose interest, by definition, so I notice that this is happening again a little bit. You could say that I sometimes have the impression that Europe is more about money and the economy and economic growth than about me as a European.

M: So why are you dropping out?

NLFG3_F4: Yes, then I think: I don't know, that's a good question. Yes, I don't know. I have the idea that it is more about rich people who get a lot of money out of it, so to speak. I don't necessarily feel connected to that or anything. Or yes, that it's more about the bigger picture than the social development of a country or the welfare of people, while I think that's precisely where the challenges lie and also where the EU can and should be able to help. So, I think that the European Union is now very much focused on power and money and their position in the world and that countries should look after their own citizens themselves, that the European Union is not really interested in that, that they are not really there for that.

M: Does anyone want to respond to that?

NLFG3_F3: I actually quite agree [laughter]. Yeah, I do agree, I'm not very economic either, so I'm like, I don't have much knowledge about that, and I don't have any spatial awareness at all. Well, how you could close the gap, so to speak. However, when I look at education, for example, then I think, oh, it would be nice if, for example, more international schools were to have a certain programme, so that you can also look in other countries to see what it's like there because I think we can learn a lot from each other and I think that there is too little knowledge for that, so to speak, at the moment. If I look at students at senior secondary vocational education/MBO, I think that international work placements are offered much less and that it is much less of a thing. And yet I think it's a very good thing because it allows you to broaden your horizons. It's good for your personal development and your socio-emotional development because you get to see other cultures and, well, the difference. And I think that perhaps it can also help you at work, because imagine going to a country where you think, well, this is, this is all, this is where I am, but I wasn't born here, and people will undoubtedly have the same opinion the other way round. So, then you go too, then you become much more, one, I think, and I think that then you are also much more- (short pause) yes, I think that then you are really one united front because then it is not: This is MY country, but this is OUR country. But then again, this is a whole other leap.

NLFG3_F1: I think that is very true. So, I think it is indeed very challenging, precisely because you have very different cultures and you come from different countries. However, I do not think that that necessarily has to be the case, and I have the idea that that is often not seen. It is as if that means that you cannot be one single unit together, but I think it should be possible, and it would be great if it were.

M: To go back to the question of money [laughter], should more be spent on unemployment in another country? Or do you think not? Should the Netherlands pay more?

NLFG3_F3: No, I do not think so. I'm just going to be very clear now. No, I don't think so.

M: And why?

NLFG3_F3: Because we also have our problems within our country and I think it is also good that, as I said, we have a bit of a priority list in each country. And I think that sometimes we just shove everything in another direction, and sometimes these are also countries that don't change, so, say, structurally fall into the same problem. Then I think we can keep pumping money into them, but that is, so to speak, red figures for us, and then I think: well, if the country is not prepared to change, then at some point that's it. You can try by doing it two or three times and then, if you see that it is recurring, I would say: we are closing the tap, done and done.

NLFG3_F1: First of all, I think it is perhaps not quite the right way of thinking, to think of putting money in and then that this money is gone. That's not how it works, of course, because especially if you have one currency together, then it makes a lot of difference how other countries with that same currency, how their economies are doing. But I do think that, yes, if a country just constantly shows that they can't handle money, then there must be consequences for that, and I think that there have to be really good rules for that.

(long pause)

M: Anyone else wants to comment, on the last comment for this final scenario? Okay, thank you. Now we come to the last part. So, today we talked about the EU, so we touched upon different areas, like social inequality or economy, are there any other areas that you think are relevant when we talk about relations and mutual support within the EU?

NLFG3_F1: I also think that the EU should be involved in something as important as, well, if you look at international security or international relations, for example.

[00:59:30]

NLFG3_F3: Yes, that piece of security. That is also one of the reasons why it was created, eh, to make sure that we have such a treaty and support each other. And that something like the Second World War does not happen again. So, I think we could do a lot for each other with respect to this, but when I think about how else we could work together, I could also look at a piece of healthcare. What is offered per country, and how can we get it really stable and in one line and also learn from each other? And I wouldn't forget a bit of education either because we're all very focused on ourselves. Like hey, the Netherlands has very clear, you have to learn this, you have to learn that, but I think it's actually good to sit around the table with different countries and cultures so that you can reinforce each other in this. Then also when someone leaves for another country, it's very clear for them. Just like the English language, it's not taught as much in the Eastern Bloc as it is here. Eh, French people just don't do it because they are stubborn and yes, that's all those things that I think, but it is so handy. As you can see now with the war with Ukraine. It is so convenient if you can do that because now there is such a language barrier, which an app must solve for us. Then the question is whether that is always, say, the solution. Whether that is the most convenient thing. Plus, some people think our education systems are great and others say: well, they're a total flop, but if you look at each other and compare, you can come to a conclusion and a solution. I think we learn a lot from each other, and we keep it very much to ourselves. Yes, I think we should share much more knowledge with each other. It's just like with the vaccination eh, around the corona crisis, I mean, we had everything on how to develop something like that, but we don't give it to Africa, while Africa doesn't have those resources at all. And then I think: I think that now is precisely when you put your heads together and really present a united front where you can benefit a lot from each other. It's just like building dykes, if that knowledge is available to every European country, then eh-

(short pause)

NLFG3_F3: -what else is next to the water? Then an Italy, I don't know, can also build a dyke if they need to. No, I'm just mentioning something, this is a stupid example. I was just looking at what is on the coast. But that way you can learn a lot from each other. Look, if you look at the NS. That is with us, well [laughter] the railways are well built, but sometimes there are things that are not quite right. For example, they close a certain track for weeks in order to improve it, whereas in China, they simply put 1,000 people on a track overnight and the next morning, when everyone wakes up, a train will happily run over it, because they did so at night. So, I assume that if you start exchanging ideas, skills and qualities, that each country will also gain certain equality. Look, it is of course up to each country what they do with it. I mean, I can't imagine that Poland needs a dyke because I don't think Poland really has, well for oh, I am like, have no idea, but I mean hey. I think we don't need to know how to dig a mine either because we don't have mountains here eh.

NLFG3_F1: Limburg!

NLFG3_F4: Gas extraction, mines.

NLFG3_F3: I didn't know about that, but I think if you start sharing and exchanging that knowledge with each other, and then make sure that it is available for every country, that it is easier, first of all, to knock on someone's door: hey, how did you do that? How did you do that? Plus, you get more equality, and you really form a united front and now it's a bit like in the economic field, eh we talk to each other, and we make decisions together, or at least that's what the big five does somewhere or at least they take the lead in it. Or I assume that they manipulate a bit what their idea is? That's how I see it, in a way of speaking, and I think that the moment you start looking at a lot of areas with each other, you do create more unity. The end.

M: Does anyone else want to add something?

NLFG3_F4: Yes, I actually agree with that. I think that far-reaching European integration, so to speak, is really necessary for the challenges of the future. If you think about things like climate change and so on. Look, suppose we want to build nuclear power stations, it would be very strange to do that on the border with Germany. I mean, just organise it on a European level and make sure everyone has enough energy and stores the waste together. So, I think that sometimes Europe is very stubborn on points like that. While, in fact, it's very strange that this doesn't happen if you already form such a block, then make use of each other's strengths and knowledge and potential, so to speak. And I also think that the borders are sometimes very strange, for example, if we have Friesland here and then Germany also has a Friesland, right?

NLFG3_F1: What are you trying to say?

NLFG3_F4: But then I think: yes, I mean, look, it is already very good with this Schengen that they have removed all those borders. However, I think, people feel much more connected with each other and actually have much more historical background together than it seems now because of the border again within Europe, you know. So, I think that if you focus more on regions or so that people get to know each other a bit more and that you then feel more, so to speak, equal outside the border. So, I think that far-reaching European integration is also necessary from an early age. So that you know: what does Europe actually have to offer? What do I have to offer? What can I get out of the EU? What does it offer me? Why is it useful to have a European Union? I'll tell you what, NOW I’m finding that out in my life, but I think there are a lot of people who just aren't interested in it. But then I think: yes, that's also how you as Europe and the European Union take your position and how you facilitate that, so I think that's very important, that it is facilitated more. And at the same time, I think that that is also very challenging because people are not interested in Dutch politics, let alone in the European Union. But I can imagine that, say, if you start doing some kind of celebrations at the European level, that people will then also become more connected with each other. So, another song festival and so on [many voices of approval].

NLFG3_F1: I think indeed that just, I think it is very fascinating to look at how the EU is now and indeed that just nobody knows, yes everybody knows that it is there, but that is where it ends a bit. Often because, well, what they do and who they are. You just don't know the people who are in that parliament. It's very vague at all that there are 20000 different bodies that do all sorts of things, so I think you could do with a few public holidays or direct elections, for example, so that you can vote for anyone or anything. That you just know a bit more, that you know some debates, some of, well, but also, of course, more fun things that help a lot in getting an image of the EU and I think if people have an image of it that the EU gets more power and therefore can do more interesting things.

NLFG3_F4: Why is there no public holiday on the day that the European Union is (short pause) just, I mean, you have a date that the European Union, that they said: oh, we are an EU together, why don't we eat cake or something then? [laughter]

M: Just to make a side note. We do have a Europe day. Yes, my Instagram was full of it.

NLFG3_F1: Then my algorithm is slightly different.

NLFG3_F3: This also kind of says something about it. That, say, for the people who work within the European Union, for whom the European Union is really a thing, but for the citizen who, say, lives and works within the European Union, it says nothing at all. So, in a way, there is a gap between the two. And I think it would be great if we could close that gap. Because what I also notice is that when I watch one of those European things on television, for example, I never understand what they say and that they have a certain vocabulary that makes me think, yes, that's nice [sarcasm]. Every university-educated person now understands what you're saying, so to speak, but there are also many people who lag behind. And so, they are not motivated to study it and they don't always realise that they also have rights and a say. So, I think that diversity in levels of difficulty, I think that you have to broaden that. That you do not meet, say, at the bottom of the ladder or at the top but halfway up the ladder. I don't have the idea that this is happening now.

M: Okay, and if we then look at the topics we have discussed today? How do you see the future of the Netherlands in the EU?

NLFG3_F3: Well something like the Brexit doesn't seem very convenient [laughter]. Yeah, no but, despite the fact that I've had a lot of comments during this discussion, it's just not wise to say we'll stop because the EU is a very stable factor at the moment, or at least as someone who has very little knowledge of it, it does feel very stable.

M: NLFG3_F2, do you agree?

NLFG3_F2: Yes, yes.

M: Netherlands in the EU is something positive?

NLFG3_F2: Yes, I think so. It is of some use, so to speak. It is stable. We can count on something, so to speak. I think it is handy that we are there.

NLFG3_F1: Yes. I think, yes, I hope maybe. However, I also think that in the Netherlands quite a lot of people have that feeling that it is something positive and I think that that is just, well, that a certain momentum is needed, to really change that into some more action and some more real involvement instead of just a bit of a vague idea of oh, that it is something positive.

(long pause)

[01:10:11]

M: Okay, what would be the last comment you would like to make on this topic? Your last comment that you would like to make.

(short pause)

NLFG3_F3: I will come up with ideas. No, I think not, but I think it would be nice if the citizens were more engaged and that they were more involved, that there should be more attention to it in education because that is something that is compulsory. To bring it up to date, so not only look at the history but also look at what is the influence of things? And yes, I think, I think especially that. I think you must make the new generation aware of it. And I mean something like this has made me more aware. I mean, the European Union, is something that, well (short pause) isn't something that I'm very involved with or have never been. If we, if you talk about it like that, then I think, oh, some things are quite interesting. And then you think, yes, if you then compare everything together, then I think: yes, how is it possible that we, as, in this case, students, have so little knowledge about this, and don't always know exactly what we should and can do with it.

M: Because you feel that the new generation knows less about the EU than the previous generation?

NLFG3_F3: I think that the people who were there at the start of the project did get a lot more out of it and they also saw a certain growth and development. And if I look at what, eh, I'm in senior secondary vocational education/MBO, so I have a course called Citizenship and you have to write a report about the European Union and you get that from the Internet because copying, cutting and pasting is just the easiest way, you don't have to read it. Yes, but that also means that it is very limited and because the assignments are not like, oh yes, we are going to do something now, are we? It is not promoted as something that is fun. I think that if we look at politics, you either like it or you don't. Well, I don't like it either. Well, that's not what I'm interested in, let alone European politics, then I really think, bye! So, I think, yes, I don't know what I wanted to say.

NLFG3_F2: What was the question again?

M: Whether the new generation knows less about the EU than the previous generation.

NLFG3_F2: Like my age? Yes? Yeah, I think the older generation knows a lot more about it. Like my generation with classmates etc. barely discuss it with school too. We happen to have Citizenship again this period, so then it's seven weeks that we learn a bit more about it, in the two years that I'm doing this education. So, I think it's offered less, and I think the generation below me is even less, so I think it's useful that, if schools would offer more and also show on social media, look! This is the EU, and this is what they do. That it becomes, shall we say, a little bigger, that we know more about it.

M: Do you agree? With NLFG3_F3 and NLFG3_F2?

NLFG3_F4: Yes, when I look at my parents, I don't have the idea that they know much more about the EU than I do. So, I don't think so. I do know that they used to be very enthusiastic when they could withdraw euros for the first time. So that was a big momentum I remember too. But apart from that, I don't think they're very involved in the European Union, and I think that's because when I, in my opinion, interpret it for them, they see it as a bit of a grey area that's mainly technocratic. Where, yes, decision-making takes a very long time, you have little influence. So why think about it at all? Whereas if we talk about it today, then I think: oh, but that is actually quite interesting and there is quite a lot of potential in it, and I think you can also do quite a lot with it. So, it's a shame that it's not being exploited yet and that citizens are not being involved, even though I think it's quite important, especially if we look to the future. So that's what I thought.

(short pause)

NLFG3_F4: And at the same time, I think I can add one more thing. As I said before, when I was in secondary school, I was part of a project that was funded by the European Union, and now I am again, and I think projects like that are really nice because I think there are quite a lot of subsidies for that as well. Or at least, that's what it used to be, that they gave money to all kinds of study projects, so to speak. And that's how I got to know the European Union in a different way, and I can see its added value of it. So, I think that they are working on it, but they don't always know how to find it.

NLFG3_F1: Then, maybe lastly, because I think indeed from what NLFG3_F4 says that those projects, that is also just natural, yes, because not everyone likes politics. Very many people do not. Yes, not everyone finds economics interesting or knows anything about it. So, I do indeed think that that kind of project or education is really very important, and I think that, of course, something is already being done, for example, with the EU Discover that you can travel by train for free. Well, that's really great, that kind of initiative. And yes, that is what it is, I think that it is indeed something that offers a lot of opportunities.

NLFG3_F4: And in terms of generations?

NLFG3_F1: And in terms of generations, yes. Yes, I find it difficult to say. Yes, I think it has been like that for a long time, that people just don't know that much about it. I think that in the past, of course, it has always been very economic, and I think that, well, if you're not really interested in economics or politics, it doesn't matter which generation you're in, but maybe it's just not for you.

NLFG3_F1: OK, thank you. Is there anything else you had in mind during the discussion that we didn't ask about? Or what you would like to add?

NLFG3_F4: No, I think we have covered everything, as far as you can cover the European Union completely [laughter].

M: Very well, we'll close it. Thank you!