M: Then I would like to have a discussion first, no discussion, an introduction round even though you may know each other now. Would you like to start?

NLFG2_M1: My name is NLFG2_M1, 22 years old, currently not studying, and I am joining this discussion group today.

NLFG2_F2: OK, my name is NLFG2_F2 and I am 58 years old, and I am an interior decorator.

NLFG2_F3: I am NLFG2_F3, 60 years old and I am a housewife.

NLFG2_F4: I am NLFG2_F4, 60 years old and I am on full disability.

M: Okay, thank you. So, you have a paper in front of you. Would you please write on it: what are the first three thoughts that come to mind when you hear the European Union or the EU? Yes, Think in Ink or the other one. What do you think of when someone says EU or European Union?

NLFG2_F3: There are no wrong answers. Just write something down.

M: Don’t worry, we don't pay attention to spelling.

NLFG2_F2: I did not understand that completely.

M: More than three is also allowed!

NLFG2_F2: I have nothing on paper yet.

(long pause)

[stress sounds NLFG2_F2]

M: Okay then, we'll just start, but maybe you can write something down in between. You don’t have to worry. Eh, whoever wants to start, may start.

NLFG2_F3: I first have to say my name huh? Well, I have collaboration, that the European countries will work together more. At the moment, this is a bit of a problem. Also, I wrote that you all have to be on the same page and solve the problems together and not every country for itself.

M: Okay.

NLFG2_F3: This is what I had.

NLFG2_F4: I find the EU to be a bit, a far from my bed show. It is expensive. Travel without a passport, and many rules.

M: Okay and far from your bed? What eh?

NLFG2_F4: Well, it doesn't tell me that much. I mean the only thing you hear is that there are certain rules, and that money goes to certain countries and that we contribute a lot to everything and we are the best boy in the class, we must be at the forefront of everything with the rules.

NLFG2_M1: Well, I had one whole. So, what then also comes up is working together and not thinking solely as one country. These are the three words that come to my mind about the European Union. I also had a history. Well, we've been around for a long time, so we should expect some cooperation, we've experienced a lot of things. And I wrote down discussion because there are some topics that are not yet fully articulated about the European Union.

M: And what topics do you mean?

NLFG2_M1: Well, about how other countries think, about how they approach a problem, about, for example, sending eh money to other countries and the like.

NLFG2_F3: OK, and NLFG2_F2, are there any particular things that you agree with?

NLFG2_F2: Yes, with all of theirs. I do agree with that.

M: And did one specific one come up? One that you agreed with the most?

NLFG2_F2: Yes, the top one. The one of together eh.

M: Together.

(short break)

NLFG2_F2: Together. Collaboration.

M: Okay, and another question would be: Do you feel like a European citizen? Or an EU citizen?

NLFG2_F4: No.

NLFG2_M1: Yes, I do.

M: Okay and why?

NLFG2_M1: Because I can go to other European countries with just my identity card. I don't have to have a passport for that. In most countries, you pay with the euro, so in terms of money and travel, I can go to any European country.

M: And NLFG2_F4 no?

NLFG2_F4: No, I am just a Dutchman.

M: Okay.

NLFG2_F4: I think it is easy that you pay with the same money everywhere and that you do not need a passport and that you can cross the border just like that. But I can't say that I feel European.

NLFG2_F3: Yes and no, I do agree with some of the others. And yes, Europe? Is it still a Europe?

M: What do you mean by that?

NLFG2_F3: Well, then we come to the refugees and asylum seekers.

M: Because that changes what?

NLFG2_F3: I think, I don't know, at the beginning, I totally agreed with the EU. That we are one, that we are together. This way you are stronger, you can organise more. Yes, and then I think, the way things have been going for the last few years, it is gradually becoming a bit of a mess, and especially now, right now. But yes, that is also a question of Ukraine, who are now coming here. Then I think: yes, our own people don't have a house and they won't be able to cope with the situation, our children, and grandchildren.

M: Do you agree? NLFG2_M1, you nodded.

NLFG2_M1: Yes, I do largely agree with what NLFG2_F3 just said about Dutch citizens having a very hard time finding a house, but that others can move in just like that.

M: With others you mean?

NLFG2_M1: Yes, the people from Ukraine or people from an AZC {centre of asylum seekers}. Look, they also have the right to a house, but a lot of Dutch people also have a very hard time getting a house.

M: And NLFG2_F2, do you feel like a European citizen?

NLFG2_F2: No, I hardly ever go abroad.

M: So, then it has no special meaning for you?

NLFG2_F2: No.

M: How would you describe your overall position, your general feeling towards the EU?

(short pause)

M: What kind of feeling do you get about the EU?

NLFG2_F3: I have to think carefully, well, it is getting a bit negative.

M: And why?

NLFG2_F3: Well, everything. If you see what we all have to pay, what all goes to Brussels. For example, so many billions go there, so many billions, and what do we get in return? And what are sometimes the solutions? And then they say: yes, we have a lot of money for this and a lot for that and when push comes to shove, it's not there.

(short pause)

NLFG2_F3: The negativity is really more from recent years. But in the beginning, I was quite positive about one Europe, so to speak, and now look at Hungary. Yes, they are suddenly going to pay in rubles. Yes, then I think, we are no longer united. Gradually there are some cracks.

(long pause)

[00:10:29]

NLFG2_F4: I do agree with NLFG2_F3 that the positivity is getting less and less. And also, with those rules with nitrogen and so on. We have to do it, and Germany does not, they have their own rules.

NLFG2_M1: Yes, I would say for the feeling I have with the EU is a bit confusing, just a bit (short pause) it can go two ways. It can still end very positively, but it can also turn into something negative, so I'm a bit in between right now.

M: And where exactly are you in between?

NLFG2_M1: Well, whether I find it a very positive thing that we are all still a European Union, or that we as the Netherlands have to say, is it better for us that we cut loose.

M: And what would you see as advantages?

NLFG2_M1: An advantage of us staying in the European Union? Well, one advantage is that we as the Netherlands can still benefit from another, from other countries. For example, if something is discovered there, something we can really use, that it is also easier to deal with, that we can also obtain it. And well, if we are one whole unit, we are also much stronger in this exchange. And the Netherlands, as one of the countries that founded it, I think we still have a place in this process.

M: And NLFG2_F2: Is it an advantage that the Netherlands is in the EU?

NLFG2_F2: Yes and no.

M: Yes and no? Why?

NLFG2_F2: Yes, the Dutch are far too good actually. If we are in need, will they also come and help us?

M: Yes, so the Netherlands helps other countries? But other countries help the Netherlands less?

NLFG2_F2: Yes, if for example, well, if something happens here and you go abroad. I don't know what they do then.

M: Okay, and NLFG2_F3 and NLFG2_F4? You said it was a disadvantage, what is a disadvantage? A disadvantage of being in the EU?

NLFG2_F3: Well, first of all, I'm going to come back to the money, that really a lot of money goes to the EU. We just had a crisis with the corona, and who knows what else. So, we actually needed our own money for ourselves. Well, then Brussels still must have so much again. Well, and then I think: yes, what will Hungary do, what will Bulgaria do, what will Italy do, Greece.

NLFG2_F4: Yes, they do not have it.

NLFG2_F3: Then I think, yes, the Netherlands, the smallest country and that must always raise the most. And as I said before, at the beginning of the years that the EU was there, I thought it was fine, one currency great, simply crossing the border great, and there are of course more examples. But now, in recent years, there are actually only disadvantages coming forward, also what NLFG2_F4 said about nitrogen. How do they determine that we have too much nitrogen here? What do Belgium and Germany produce? And then I think: is that nitrogen coming to us or? And then I think: yes, we must give up so much, the farmers have to give up so much, drive less with our cars and I don't know what else. But are the other countries going to do all that too? And then I think: yes, now we are slowly starting to get distortions.

(short pause)

NLFG2_F4: Well, what I said: expensive and many rules.

NLFG2_F3: Yes.

M: Okay, are there any last comments you want to make?

(short pause)

M: Something you had in mind? Because NLFG2_F4 you just said to NLFG2_F3, that they wouldn't have that. What did you mean by that? Greece and-

(short pause)

NLFG2_F4: Oh, they have no money, we pay for them. Our money goes there.

NLFG2_M1: The economy of those countries is not stable enough for a country like the Netherlands or a country like Germany if they get into a crisis to help us back up economically. I think that's the point, yes.

M: You agree with that?

NLFG2_M1: I also agree with that.

NLFG2_F2: Me too.

M: Okay, let's move on to the first scenario. Imagine that there is a major natural disaster such as an earthquake, a flood, or a forest fire in one of the EU countries. How should the EU react?

(short pause)

M: So, there is a natural disaster, a forest fire, or an earthquake. What should the EU's response be?

NLFG2_M1: I think that European or EU countries can, for example, put things together, such as money, materials, and troops, to be able to help with that. But I do think that this should be distributed fairly. Or, after that, apart from that, a country can still decide, for example, whether to send more or send less. So that as an EU country, for example, you have a duty, that you give a certain amount to the EU and that afterwards as a country you can still decide, for example, we will do more or we will not do more because we have done our EU duty. But I do think that you, as the European Union, should offer support to the country that has been affected.

NLFG2_F3: I completely agree with you, and then you come back to the issue of what we were saying about Italy and Greece. What are they contributing? But it may have escaped my notice, and take Ukraine for a moment, what has Greece contributed? Ammunition as well? In a manner of speaking? Because then you DO have to work together, and you already must have a plan ready before disaster strikes because of course, you can't do it at that moment. Imagine an earthquake or whatever, or a big forest fire, that you first have to discuss what to do? I assume that some sort of plan will already be ready and then, of course, you must follow it, I mean you simply must. It does not matter whether it is in Europe or outside Europe, no, you just have to. If it is beyond Europe and they come to me with the collection box, I also give money, so I think everyone should be prepared to do something there.

NLFG2_M1: I agree.

NLFG2_F2: I also agree.

NLFG2_F4: Me too, but then I think on the other side: you have to work together, but we had the flood last year in Valkenburg. Well, there is no foreign country that has done anything for us, and I mean that water doesn't come up spontaneously there in Limburg. It comes in via Belgium or via Germany. So, I think they should also take responsibility for that.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, I completely agree with you, and then there must be a, then there must be a European money pot ready.

NLFG2_F4: Yes, I think so too.

NLFG2_F3: And then they should not all of a sudden think: hey guys, how are we going to solve this. Because it obviously does not come from the Netherlands.

NLFG2_F4: No, that is why I say, that water does not come up spontaneously in Limburg, it comes from the mountain.

NLFG2_F3: That is also the case with winter sports. It comes from the snow that is going to melt, and it comes in via the Rhine, and I don't know from where else, into our country. Of course, they can't do anything about it, but it does come from somewhere. It doesn't specifically come from Limburg, the water no. And Germany has had enough too, of course. Yes, with those water disasters over there. Yes, what has been sent there? Look, if it's the European Union, yes, there must be a big money pot ready and waiting. Then I think, well, that's gone from the money pot and now the money pot must be filled again.

M: And how should other EU countries react?

NLFG2_F3: Well, I know, yes, that depends also on how rich the country is. And if a country has nothing, well, what should you donate? What should you do then? And then you end up with Italy, Greece, those countries anyway because they can’t do anything else either. Italy is as corrupt as I don't know what.

(short pause)

NLFG2_F3: That's a bit of all fun and games, that's how I see it. It's not entirely black and white, of course. But I don't think that, no, I think that, when we won't achieve our goal, and Italy will neither, then I think: yes, they will be chasing the Netherlands for it, but not Italy, as a matter of speaking. Yes, here is a bit of a disagreement.

[00:20:14]

NLFG2_M1: Yes, but what countries like Italy and Greece can still do, is, for example, well I think a lot of people there are unemployed. Or in any case, you can also train those people in the European Union, for example, in order to be able to fight natural disasters. Then they can supply the troops and other countries can supply equipment and the general money pot. So, then you have the difference between a rich country that contributes the money and a poor country that contributes the troops. So then, you can combine that again. Because yes, if you are a rich country, you also pay more than an economically weak country.

NLFG2_F3: Then it would have to be more financial because I also have said: well, I would like to do something in Ukraine. Yes, what should I do there?

NLFG2_M1: Yes.

NLFG2_F3: I have no background in nursing or something similar. Well, then they don't need you either, but that is what they would then have to do. Yes, it is also quite difficult, of course, you always have a word ready to say: yes, you must do this, and you must do that, but it must be feasible.

M: Should some EU countries have to do a bit more than others?

NLFG2_M1: Yes, I do think so. I think they should look at what is being contributed and what is being done in general. Are you not economically strong? What do you do then? Because it's very easy to say: we don't have any money, but I think there are still plenty of other things they can do because they have to. It cannot be the case that you just say: no, I don't have this and that's it. You must think of solutions and not problems.

M: And NLFG2_F4, do you agree?

NLFG2_F4: Yes, I agree with that. With what you also said, then they can do work, you know, in those, in Italy and in Greece. That in the winter period, unemployment is very high there, so then they could also make themselves useful instead of having to contribute money.

M: And how should the Netherlands react?

(short pause)

NLFG2_F4: I don't think the Netherlands should always stand in front.

M: Okay, and what do you mean by that?

NLFG2_F4: Well, if rules are made, the Netherlands always says: oh, we will do that, we can do that. And those other countries are like, well, let the Netherlands do it, then we don't have to. Yes, I can understand why England has left.

NLFG2_M1: No, the Netherlands doesn't always have to be in the forefront for indeed, for every new thing, because another country can do that too. But yes, there is always a lot of looking at the original founding countries that have seats in the EU. What are they going to do? How do they do it? Well, maybe other countries should also be given the opportunity to be the front runners for once. They can say: hey, is this useful? Is it feasible? Can we all do this? Or is this an individual thing? There must be more cohesion in this. That there is not one country that is in the lead and says: hey, we are going to do this as this is feasible for us. You can see if you can achieve it, yes or no. I think that is where things have to change.

NLFG2_F3: But that may also be due to the fact that we, the Dutch, are able to react very quickly to something and get something done. And that is why we are always up front. Part of it, I think, and then I come back to the Union. Yes, you have to be ready or you have to be prepared to some extent, but in practice that does not always happen.

(short pause)

NLFG2_M1: What is a good example now is article five that they are raising. That the European Union has to help each other. They have to help the countries that raise it and every country in the European Union is obliged to do that.

M: What do you mean by article five?

NLFG2_M1: That countries feel threatened by a very large neighbouring country and that they station troops and everything there.

M: That's from NATO, right?

NLFG2_M1: Yes, but that's yes, no, never mind. Just mixed up these two, sorry.

M: No, it doesn't matter.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, it might be, it might be NATO, but Europe is involved. We are involved in it unconsciously.

(long pause)

NLFG2_M1: But then you come to the point of collaboration and togetherness again.

M: Okay, if it were necessary to send a crisis management team, for example, firemen and doctors to the affected country. Do you think the Netherlands should do that? And who should cover the cost of that support?

NLFG2_M1: Yes, I think the Netherlands should also send firemen or doctors, but then the costs are for the European Union. So, I think that then indeed, what we just talked about, that there should be a money pot, that the whole thing is paid from that European Union money pot.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, let us see, how did it go again? What was it about?

M: About crisis management.

NLFG2_F3: Ah yes, with that the fire brigade or the doctors must go there. Um, in principle, yes, but I believe that we as the Netherlands are now entering a bit of a crisis with the medical care ourselves and then even more manpower will have to go. I don't think that's good. Here in the Netherlands, they haven't even got it straightened out yet and then something happens and maybe half of them have to go there. I think that's going too far. But we do have to send some. But I don't know whether that has to be an extreme amount. And will one or two doctors be enough?

NLFG2_F4: Well, we don't have to supply them all, do we?

NLFG2_F3: No, but it is already dire here at the moment.

NLFG2_F4: Yes, but well, you have Germany and France etc. who can deliver them as well.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, but it was now about the Netherlands.

NLFG2_M1: Yes, that we must provide personnel and things. I think, yes, we have to, but indeed not everything, because other countries that do, have to do the same.

NLFG2_F2: Yes, because there is also a shortage of healthcare and so on.

NLFG2_M1: But you have that in many countries, you have the shortage of healthcare.

NLFG2_F3: These are difficult issues though to solve quickly. Eh, I do have an opinion, but to solve it, is of course something else.

NLFG2_F2: Yes, yes, people who have retired also have to fill in at the health centres and so on.

M: Okay, do you feel a responsibility to help personally? And why or why not?

(long pause)

NLFG2_F4: Well, no, because I am not able to do so. So yeah, I am not. I can't do that.

NLFG2_F3: Do you mean physically? Or also?

M: Other ways too.

NLFG2_F3: Eh yes! I will just take Ukraine as an example. Recently I’ve been to Reinders, a supermarket in the neighbourhood. There I took a shopping trolley and filled it with all kinds of things and bought them for Ukraine. So that is what I do. In that sense, I help.

NLFG2_F2: Yes, and if there is money to be donated, then you always donate money, yes.

NLFG2_M1: Yes and no. Yes, the little things can be done. But also no, what big impact do I have, for example, when I do something. If everyone does something, yes, then it's a very big thing you can create. But if you're the only one doing it, then you make almost no difference. Also, I have a bit of a yes, I do have a background a little bit in healthcare, so from that perspective, I also want to do something.

M: And NLFG2_F4, if it is not physical help?

NLFG2_F4: Well then eh, I will. I mean I'm quite prepared to deliver some money or goods.

[00:30:05]

M: So, is there anything else you would like to say about this scenario that you were thinking of?

NLFG2_M1: No.

NLFG2_F3: Well, regarding Brussels, perhaps fewer meetings and a quicker turnaround. Not months of meetings about something and then at the end you still don't know whether it is a yes or a no. Perhaps a bit more direct. A bit more direct, perhaps.

M: And who has that responsibility in Brussels?

NLFG2_F3: Yes, there you ask me something. I think, like, when Rutte goes to Brussels, then, for example, not all those stories should be told, but some more yes and no and something like that. Like who's sitting there and what it's about. Say, is it about agriculture or I don't know what, then they have to meet for months and months first, then we still don't know what we're going to do.

M: Okay, then, thank you. Then we'll move on to the second scenario. If an economic crisis, such as the euro crisis, happens again and some countries are adversely affected or hit harder than others. How should the Netherlands react?

NLFG2_M1: Perhaps, if the Netherlands comes out of it looking good, that we have the experts in economic reconstruction that we can send to the affected countries, for example. To explain how we can solve this and how we can offer a solution? It's very difficult to say that if we emerge in a very negative way from the economic crisis or the euro crisis, then we won't be able to send help to other countries just like that because the Netherlands will have to rebuild itself first and then look further.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, first try to solve the problem internally, in the country itself. Countries must take measures themselves first, as far as they can, and then perhaps the European Union can come to help.

NLFG2_M1: If you then look from other countries' perspectives, if they are less affected, then they can look at the countries around them and say: hey, how can we help you? How can we do this together? But that it should happen, that you support each other in this. However, I can understand if countries first say: I want to get things right internally first and then we'll look outside.

M: And NLFG2_F4 or NLFG2_F2 do you agree?

NLFG2_F4: Yes.

NLFG2_F2: Yes.

M: If the Netherlands is then affected adversely or badly, how should the other EU countries react?

NLFG2_F3: I think it depends on the situation.

M: Okay and why?

NLFG2_F3: Well, take our housing shortage, what does Germany want to do about that? What does Italy want to do about it? So, we will have to solve that ourselves because the problem is European.

M: So, the problem is European, but the Netherlands must solve it themselves?

NLFG2_F3: Yes, that, sometimes that is just not possible, because Germany or Belgium is doing nothing about that. We have a shortage of houses now, but that is also partly due to Europe, to Europe itself. People come here and nothing is done about it.

M: And how do you see this in relation to the economic crisis?

NLFG2_F3: Yes, crisis, housing shortage. I think that this is a crisis at the moment.

(long pause)

NLFG2_F3: Employment is, at the moment, well, gradually there are shortages everywhere. It could also become a crisis, but not completely yet.

NLFG2_M1: But do you pronounce that as an economic crisis?

NLFG2_F3: Yes.

(short pause)

NLFG2_M1: The question was?

M: If the Netherlands is adversely affected, how should the other EU countries react?

NLFG2_M1: Well, if you indeed look from that perspective, the same as what was just told before, you cannot. Indeed, yes, look, other countries can, if the Netherlands can't afford it, other EU countries can step in to do that. However, really putting up houses visually or something similar, another EU country can't do anything about that. Yes, they can appoint companies, they can deliver the building blocks for the houses, but in the end, it is the Netherlands itself that must put them there. And I do expect other EU countries to look at it and say: can we help in any way? Or can't we? That it does go around in EU’s circles: can we help? Can we deliver things? Yes? No? That they see it. That we all just take a look to see if there are possibilities.

(long pause)

M: Should this aid from the other EU countries also differ per country? Should there be a difference between countries?

NLFG2_M1: Well, it depends on what they can deliver, because if you have one particular plan for each EU country stating: hey, you have to be able to deliver this. It's also about the principle of: what has happened and what do we need? And the difference can differ more per country because some countries don't have the same thing that another country can offer.

NLFG2_F3: That is supply and demand.

M: Do you agree?

NLFG2_F2: Yes.

(long pause)

M: Okay, an additional question would then be if the Netherlands received financial support from other countries, would the Netherlands have to obey to certain restrictions or rules associated with that? So, if the Netherlands gets money, there must be rules attached to it?

NLFG2_F3: Yes, otherwise you can do what you like with it. Well, I say no, rules, yeah, there must be rules.

NLFG2_M1: Yes, I also agree that there should be fixed rules. [agreement of group]

M: And what kind of rules?

NLFG2_F3: Depends on what is drawn up? Just imagine that it becomes a kind of loan. Or it becomes a gift, there may be rules attached to that, it just depends. Of course, you cannot just give money blindly. That is not possible.

M: Is there anything else that has not been discussed on this topic?

NLFG2_F3: Probably, and I can't think of one.

NLFG2_M1: Not that I can remember either.

[Interruption from outside]

M: Okay, sorry for the interruption. Yes, do we need to say anything else? Then we move on to the third scenario, which is about social inequality. Consider or keep in mind that there are inequalities between countries and within a country. Should the EU have a common programme or fund to reduce societal inequalities?

NLFG2_F4: I do think that there are certain things where we can say that we are going to equalize them. I mean look at pensions. I mean, here you have to work until 67 and there are countries where you can retire as early as 50. And those are not the economically strong countries in general. Whereas here we have to work until 67. Then I think, adjust that, set one rule for the whole EU.

[00:39:44]

NLFG2_F3: I completely agree with NLFG2_F4. And of course, there are more things that make you think: hey, why do they have to retire at 50? And that this does mean that the Netherlands will get most of the costs. And it is, of course, not only that, but that is, I cannot think of anything more at the moment. Perhaps education, all of which should be on the same wavelength, otherwise, there is no need for a European Union.

M: And NLFG2_F2?

NLFG2_F2: I agree with all of it. All that is happening with the pensions and stuff. Hey, we already have to work for so long.

M: So it would be better if?

NLFG2_F2: Yes, you don't know how it will be later, it is now up to 67, but yes, it could be longer. Yes, there may be more years to come.

NLFG2_F3: Look and then the support people like us have to carry becomes heavier.

NLFG2_F2: Yes.

M: Because who is us?

NLFG2_F3: I might not be us so much anymore, but I think my children and grandchildren will get a-

NLFG2_F2: -A difficult time.-

NLFG2_F3: -well, I think so, a tough time. And I will still sing it out.

NLFG2_F4: Yes, me too.

NLFG2_F3: But then with, [NLFG2_M1 says: I don't], with well, I think for our youth that they are going to have a tough time.

M: And the EU should do something about that?

NLFG2_F3: Yes.

NLFG2_M1: I think the EU can be very supportive in this.

M: And in what way?

NLFG2_M1: By looking at regulations that can indeed be extended throughout the EU. Financially you can look at that. You can look at certain training or goods and then from there on, the EU can offer very good guidance in that.

NLFG2_F3: And that is also the case with healthcare, if you come here, some of it will be reimbursed. But if you get hurt abroad, you have to pay. I, then I think: why is that not the same everywhere? Or MORE? Of course, it doesn't have to be all the same, but it does have to be more in line with each other.

NLFG2_M1: Well, that the common thread should be present there.

M: And if we look at the income gap, for example, should the EU do something about that? About the differences between countries?

NLFG2_F4: Not only to the differences per country [laughs] but also in the companies themselves. I mean, if you see that people with a top salary still get so much bonus on top of that, while for the staff nothing can be added.

NLFG2_F3: But look, because you have, now that the EU is here, truck drivers come here. Well, they are left to their own devices. They do not get the same salary by a long shot. But I do think that this should be brought closer together. It doesn't have to be exactly up to our standards, but at least reasonably close. Just like what NLFG2_M1 said, a common thread. But why should someone from Poland or Hungary, here, they are allowed to work here, why should they be paid half the salary, for example, while doing the same job? And with healthcare too? Surely all that needs to be a bit closer together. And then look at the difference between richer countries and less rich countries. That common thread should be brought a bit, yes, a bit closer together.

(long pause)

M: Okay, and should the EU have a European-wide scheme to tackle unemployment in all countries, funded by all EU member-states?

NLFG2_F4: Yes, I think so. In that way, you can also help each other in areas where you need people and where there are shortages, and then you also help the other countries by eliminating unemployment there. Here they need enough professionals. And they have them in other countries.

NLFG2_M1: I completely agree with NLFG2_F4.

M: Because?

NLFG2_M1: Well, just how she put it. Indeed, the professionals that we need here, there are enough in other countries. But we also have a lot of professionals here who might not be able to find a job in a certain working environment and might be able to in other countries, for example. That over there they can still do the job they really want to do.

(long pause)

NLFG2_F2: Yes, I agree.

NLFG2_F3: Yes.

M: Okay, so if there is high unemployment in a particular country, should the EU try to reduce it?

NLFG2_F3: Eh no, I think that the European Union should first let that country solve a large part of the problem itself. Unless it is no longer possible, or impossible, or whatever, that they then step in to do that. But first I think the country should do it itself.

M: Okay.

(short pause)

M: Do you agree?

NLFG2_F4: Yes, I do.

(short pause)

NLFG2_F4: I mean if you as a country help that people go to other countries to help, for their own economy that's better too. I mean that money, that goes back to their own families and so on, it is a two-way street. The EU does not have to do that, but it can give guidelines for it. Stating that this is our position, but first, try to fix it yourself and if that doesn't work out, then.

(short pause)

NLFG2_F4: I am talking about the freedom of work within the EU that is already there.

NLFG2_M1: Well, what I do think is that we shouldn't immediately jump on top of it and say: now we're going to do this to help. For example, it is indeed necessary to see how things are going and whether, for example, a mistake could have been made. And that the country itself can put things right, not that we immediately jump on top with this must change and that must change because everyone does something from time to time that is not in line with what is expected of them. However, the arrangement should indeed be that we can support each other in this, but that the country itself can also take a few steps first.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, I agree. A country like that must do something itself first and then if they can't get there at all, then something has to be ready to help them. If you start thinking for another country all the time, then the country itself is not going to do anything (overlapping with NLFG2_M1). Or not going to do anything anymore, that's a bit black and white, but in any case, they must solve their own problems first.

M: And NLFG2_F2?

NLFG2_F2: Yes, I do agree. That it all goes like this.

M: Okay, and why?

NLFG2_F2: Well that what NLFG2_F3 said, with the with, what was it that you said? That they should try it themselves first.

NLFG2_F3: Otherwise, you will become lazy, won't you?

NLFG2_F2: Yes.

NLFG2_F3: Or well, lazy, at least then the country thinks, well, the EU will solve that. We don't have to do anything, so to speak. That is not how it works, of course. You have to try and solve the problem yourself first.

NLFG2_F2: Yes.

M: Okay, should the Netherlands contribute to reducing unemployment in another EU country?

NLFG2_M1: Yes, because if we expect another country to do it, I think that we as the Netherlands should also do it because otherwise, we cannot expect another country to do it [agreement of the group]. We just have to have one common thread in that as an EU member.

NLFG2_F2: Yes, have a common thread.

NLFG2_F3: I totally agree. If we want people from abroad, it must be the other way around too.

(short pause)

NLFG2_F3: I mean the free passage is there after all.

(long pause)

NLFG2_F4: But I do think that when people come to work here, they should also work for the salary that people get here.

NLFG2_F3: Yes.

NLFG2_F2: Yes.

NLFG2_M1: Yes.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, I think then, just like that, it should be in line with each other.

NLFG2_F4: That should be in line, you should not say: ah you-

NLFG2_F3: You are from Poland; you get half of what someone else gets. No, of course, that is not possible. But yes, look, the requirements of life. Look, yes that is also very difficult, a bit difficult. Look, the requirements of life in Poland may not be as high as they are here, but that does not mean that they should get half as much.

NLFG2_F2: Well, the Poles get-

NLFG2_F3: They do have to pay them more like our wages. But whether they are exactly the same.

(short pause)

M: What did you say NLFG2_F2?

NLFG2_F2: I said the Poles come here more because they earn less here, they don't get as much as-

NLFG2_F3: No, not at all. But neither does any other country. Those people from Hungary or wherever also do not. That depends on what profession they are in.

M: So, what did you mean by requirements of life?

NLFG2_F3: Well, I think our necessities of life are higher here than in, say, Hungary, Bulgaria, Poland, the Czech Republic, those places. There the necessities of life are probably not as high as here.

[00:50:03]

M: What do you consider a necessity of life?

NLFG2_F3: Well, actually everything. Food, a bit of healthcare, all that. Luxury.

M: Okay, and if it costs extra? Who will pay for it?

NLFG2_F3: No, you have to work for that.

M: No, I mean if the Netherlands contributes to reducing unemployment in another EU country. Does the Netherlands have to take on the extra costs?

NLFG2_M1: In that respect, that would actually be the only solution if you're going to reduce unemployment. Look, if it is an economically strong country, then the country can do it itself.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, then they can do that themselves.

NLFG2_M1: When it is an economically very weak country, then that becomes very difficult. Then you have the Netherlands, which does its thing reasonably well economically, occasionally. Then the Netherlands can take the costs upon itself. However, with another economically strong country, then that other country can take on the extra cost because if that makes their economy run smoothly again, they can do that for themselves.

M: So, if the country itself would have enough money for it, you think that the Netherlands should not have to bear that cost.

NLFG2_M1: Yes.

NLFG2_F3: Correctly said NLFG2_M1.

NLFG2_F4: Yes, you are allowed to be a part of the EU. [laughter]

M: And what do you think of that?

NLFG2_F3: Well, the way NLFG2_M1 put it, that's actually what I meant.

NLFG2_F4: Yes, yes.

NLFG2_F3: It depends on how strong the country is.

M: Where do you see that strength?

NLFG2_F3: Maybe in the corporate sector. The-

(short pause)

NLFG2_F3: -depends on what might be sitting there, the president or whatever, his stance towards it, and supply and demand.

(long pause)

NLFG2_F4: I think it also very much depends on which company you go for, because if it's a multinational company that makes millions at the end of the day, then they themselves can eh-

NLFG2_F3: -Contribute.-

NLFG2_F4: -contribute.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, it depends on what kind of situation yes. So, for example, there are state factories, or I don't know what? Yes, then you end up in a completely different situation.

NLFG2_F4: But then your cost of living will also be less. I do think you have to look at a fair ratio between the cost of living and salary. I mean if you go to Poland, everything is much cheaper there. If you go there for dinner.

(short pause)

NLFG2_F3: Yes, see that is what I meant.

NLFG2_F4: With the standard of living, yes.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, the standard of living. However, if they do work in the Netherlands, yes, then. If they work for a Dutch company, then they should get the salary that we also get. But if they are self-employed, yes, then maybe the question is what they ask themselves, but that is also quite complicated.

NLFG2_F4: Yes, part of what they earn here goes back to the homeland, of course. It is used to support a family.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, then they will get better financially. And then, if things are going well, the country itself will also become richer.

(long pause)

M: Are there any final comments or observations you would like to make about the scenario? Anything else you'd thought about?

NLFG2_F3: Well, no, because in itself it is, of course, things like Brussels and the EU, about some things I have no understanding. Perhaps I have an opinion, but all things are of course not solved 1-2-3 and solely commenting on them is something we can do very well. But I don't know how some things should be done, but I leave that to people who know about it, because of course it is quite complicated. However, I do think that there are too many rules, too many. Sometimes they don't even know anymore. I think that if you work with fewer rules, or easier rules, whatever you want to call it, then some things will be solved more quickly. I think that the whole of Brussels, and perhaps the whole of Europe too, has a bit of a problem with that. Then they come up with a rule for that, a rule for that, and that has to do with that, and I think: guys, you've spent another month trying to figure out these rules. It has to be done, but it has to be easier.

NLFG2_M1: But fewer rules make for more grey areas and these grey areas are then used a bit more, I think.

M: What do you mean by used?

NLFG2_M1: Well, they added a lot of rules because people will look for the edge of a certain rule, either to get around the rule or to break it. And that's where the grey area comes in. For that grey area, another rule is made, and that's what you just said, for example, from one rule comes the other. This is in order to avoid these grey areas and I think that we have a lot, indeed a lot, of rules for rules. But that's also because they want to guarantee that safety, that they don't go around that particular rule.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, but then you have to have stronger rules. There are simply far too many rules.

NLFG2_M1: And you have to be able to follow the rules in order to yes.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, why do you have to assemble five times for a rule? I don't understand that.

NLFG2_M1: Me neither.

M: Okay, I'll close this scenario. Then we've talked about the EU today. Where you have discussed different topics, such as social disparities or economics. Are there any other areas that you think are relevant when we talk about the relations and mutual support within the EU?

(long pause)

NLFG2_M1: I think you've actually picked out the biggest points of what's going on in the EU.

NLFG2_F3: And what are smaller points for you?

NLFG2_M1: Yes, you can then talk about the nitrogen utilization and the petrol costs that are now skyrocketing. Healthcare, well the unemployment there, the housing shortage, or the small disasters that happen in certain countries.

M: NLFG2_F2?

NLFG2_F2: Yes, I do agree with him.

M: Are there any other issues that we have not discussed?

NLFG2_F3: Enough, there might still be enough, but what I am thinking of now, well, is that we have to stay strong together. Look at England, they are already out. Well, France, you should maybe be glad that Le Pen did not win. Then France might also have started to tear. Well, Hungary is also tearing a bit, now with the current situation, because the whole EU wants to keep paying in euros, but Hungary wanted to go back to rubles. Yes, then I think, the EU is tearing up and it has to stay strong because otherwise, the unity will be gone because then someone will start and then another will.

(short pause)

NLFG2_F3: It is difficult.

NLFG2_M1: It's a very difficult subject to talk about anyway because there are really so many points that I don't even know anymore. There are so many problems, but also so many solutions that are already happening and that are not happening. So, yes, the EU should just stay as one unity and I think the Netherlands should just stay part of it.

M: And NLFG2_F4, I think you wanted to say something just now?

NLFG2_F4: No.

[00:59:57]

NLFG2_F3: OK, and how do you see the future of the Netherlands in the EU? Thinking about the topics we have discussed.

NLFG2_M1: I think if the Netherlands is going to be one of the forerunners with a lot of problem solutions and stand there as a leader and give a lot to other countries, that the Netherlands is going to get a huge dip in the future and we're going to have to see who will solve it for us. I think that is what I think about the Netherlands and its future in the EU if the EU is not going to change as it is now.

NLFG2_F3: With eh, with Europe? Yes, then I think, there are so many problems now. Take the biggest problem first, so that is the borders, what all comes in here. We have been saying for years, and Brussels has been saying for years, we are full, we are full, but they do nothing about it. Absolutely nothing. Italy is overflowing, Greece is overflowing, and a lot is coming here as well. From all these countries a lot of people are coming and at the moment nothing is being done about it. Absolutely nothing!

M: And what is the future of the Netherlands in the EU?

NLFG2_F3: Well that we get even fuller!

NLFG2_F2: Yes.

M: NLFG2_F2, you agree?

NLFG2_F2: I agree. Yeah, it's all becoming too full here anyway yeah.

M: Okay.

NLFG2_F3: The influx of other people, look, people who we have to help, we have to help, end of the story. But then so many come here.

NLFG2_F4: I think that-

NLFG2_F3: They just want to withdraw cash.

NLFG2_F4: -some kind of policy should be put in place to get rid of people from those safe countries as soon as possible [pfjoet] {makes a sound for fast}. These people who come here for their own benefit and who cause the problems because the people who do really need help, you don't notice them, they are not troublesome. [agreement NLFG2_F2 and NLFG2_F3]

NLFG2_F3: No, and this is at the moment, I think Europe's biggest problem. I, and I think if you tackle it reasonably that there are just fewer problems-

(short pause)

NLFG2_F3: -because like with employment, we are allowed, Poland, is allowed, Hungary, is allowed, all those countries that are in the EU, are allowed to come here and work. Well, then I think they have priority over all the other countries. Then the other day there was something on the television, a couple of young men. They said yes, we thought we were getting food and lodging here. Yes, then I think hello.

NLFG2_F4: Yeah, I have only gotten ten euros, I can't buy cigarettes from this. So what?

NLFG2_F3: I think that with Europe if that problem is solved first. It will have to be.

(short pause)

NLFG2_F3: Look, it can't go on like this, and I, and I think Brussels, knows it too, but what is being done about it at the moment?

NLFG2_M1: Yes, but then. Well, but then the question is: what CAN Brussels do about it, about the flow of people that comes inward? What can Brussels do to stop countries like Greece and Italy from filling up?

NLFG2_F3: Yes, then there will have to be borders again.

NLFG2_M1: Yes, and how do you want to do that? Then you get that an Italy for example has to completely close their borders. They would have to secure their entire coastline to stop that flow. But when you look at it again, that is very inhumane because there are people floating on the sea who do not come from a safe place or a country, they do not feel good or safe there. Look, you don't know their motives.

NLFG2_F3: No, but that is what I am saying, you have to help those people.

NLFG2_M1: Yes, but there are a lot of them. But then again, you're going to close off a whole coastline of Italy, Greece, so you actually build a wall, that's not very human either.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, and you should just not allow people who no longer have a passport or ID, because they burn their passports, they throw them away, they don't know where they are from. You shouldn't want to do that and if you do, then you know it's not pure coffee. And there, they just have to deal with that problem, and you also might have to make an arrangement with those other countries where they come from.

NLFG2_M1: So, then you would actually say: you only get in if you have your ID card, passport or else?

NLFG2_F3: Yes, why should you burn the passport? Or throw them away? Then you have something to hide.

NLFG2_M1: I don't know. Yes, how do you plan to send those people back?

NLFG2_F3: You don't know where they come from.

NLFG2_M1: No, but those who burn it?

NLFG2_F3: There are also countries, where they come in and then they ask them where they are coming from, they say nothing and then they go on the same plane to go back again.

(short pause)

NLFG2_F3: And here they make a bed. They think the money comes out of the wall here and that they are provided with a house.

NLFG2_F2: And the house is also being furnished. Also, yes.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, I think that is the EU's biggest problem first, and then we can look at nitrogen again, so to speak.

M: Because NlFG2_F4, you were just talking about how you understood England being out of the EU? Or that they were happy to be out?

NLFG2_F4: Yes, they have their own right of disposal back. They can decide for themselves what they want. Look and they are keeping the borders closed for people from abroad.

M: Do you see this as the future of the Netherlands?

NLFG2_F4: No, look England is just separate, it is a big island. That situation is just very different. We are in the middle of everything, and we are very open and always saying come inside. Saying: yes, that is a pity, there is no place, but you can lie here on the lawn tonight. Then I think: what are you doing?

NLFG2_M1: And we as a Dutch country in the EU are also very important for the export and import of goods, we as the port of Rotterdam. So, if we were to step out of that, it would cause chaos again.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, it all has its advantages and disadvantages. That's why you might want to solve the biggest problem first, or try to solve it.

(long pause)

NLFG2_M1: In the most human way possible.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, of course.

(short pause)

NLFG2_M1: Yes, then the question becomes again, is it the country itself that has to solve it or what can the European Union do about it? Because should we, as the Netherlands, for example, as an EU state, send people over there to close the entire border? Or is that then up to Italy or Greece, for example?

NLFG2_F3: Well, I don't think so, because it is the European Union.

NLFG2_F4: No, it is a common European problem.

NLFG2_M1: So that's why I'm also saying: is the Netherlands then for example, that they say for example yes, we'll send 500 men to guard that border there completely, 24/7 and people with a passport and ID can get in, you know who they are and who they are not. But then those who don't have it. What do you do with them? Because you can't possibly send them back on the boat they came on.

NLFG2_F4: You guys puncture them? [laughter]

NLFG2_F3: No but look at solving the problem. It is not only the problem that they are placed here in the country, but the problem also already starts there with people who are smugglers. That is also where it starts. So, you have to do something about that as well. It's not just immediately closing the border and done, but, yes, solving other problems as well.

NLFG2_M1: Yes, that was a very black and white idea.

NLFG2_M1: But then let's then say throw that whole Mediterranean, Mediterranean Sea patrols and double it.

NLFG2_F3: Look, the unemployment rate in Italy and Greece is obviously high. Well, train them as marines and send a boat, a navy ship there a bit more often.

NLFG2_M1: Then 80,000 more costs are added.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, it is one or the other, it costs us a lot now too. I think now maybe more than if we had a navy ship there.

(short pause)

NLFG2_F3: By way of example.

NLFG2_M1: Yes.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, you must deal with the country where the smugglers all start too. And people who can pay a smuggler five or ten thousand euros, then I think, you have it good in your own country, you do not have to come here at all.

NLFG2_F2: Then no.

M: And NLFG2_F2, how do you see the future of the Netherlands in the EU?

NLFG2_F2: What can I say to that? It is difficult.

M: Well, whatever comes to mind.

NLFG2_F2: Yes. I hope yes, a good future for the children. Yes, it will be very difficult for them.

M: So, the EU in that respect is positive?

NLFG2_F2: Well, what about the education of those children later on? Hey, it is getting more and more expensive. Yes, those who still have children now. What kind of future will they have? When they are sixteen or seventeen, you don't know. Yes, it's good that you're not looking forward, but otherwise.

NLFG2_F3: That there is one Europe, I think, is fine, absolutely fine. However, let’s just say the rules and everything, that has to be completely different.

NLFG2_F4: I agree with that, NLFG2_F3. But I also think that the Netherlands does not always have to be the best boy in the class.

NLFG2_F3: No, we don’t have to be in front. We, we are a pinhead on the whole world map, and it is very striking that everybody can find the Netherlands and if you ask for another country, they say: yes, I don't know-

(short pause)

NLFG2_F3: -and then I think: why do they find the Netherlands, because of this [makes hand gesture money], I don't know.

M: This is what?

NLFG2_F3: Ping ping.

NLFG2_M1: Money, money.

M: You agree?

NLFG2_F2: Yes.

NLFG2_M1: Largely yes.

M: What does largely mean?

NLFG2_M1: Well, what NLFG2_F4 and NLFG2_F3 just said, I completely agree with. We just need to relax the rules a bit and the Netherlands should not be at the top of the class. But we should also not sink to the bottom completely. That we, the Netherlands, don't have that much say anymore because the Netherlands still has to be important enough. But we also don't have to be completely in the foreground.

NLFG2_F3: We’ll do that.

NLFG2_M1: Yes, because we can also sometimes follow another country in their ideas because the Netherlands doesn't always have the best ideas either.

NLFG2_F3: No, but that is also true, but that is just like with the nitrogen utilization. If we cannot solve the nitrogen problem, the Netherlands cannot conform to that standard of the EU, and if the countries around it do not try to, then we will not succeed either.

NLFG2_M1: No.

NLFG2_F3: Because we have to go first again, but it doesn't work.

NLFG2_M1: Because we have to drive a hundred while in Germany there is no speed limit.

NLFG2_F3: By way of example.

NLFG2_M1: Yes.

NLFG2_F3: And then all those other factories in the Ruhr area. Yes, the Ruhr area and in other countries. Yes, then I think: hello, we, we can't manage that. Eh, it has to be, yes, it must be feasible. And if you want it to be feasible, then the whole EU will have to work on the nitrogen utilization and then: yes, then you can go further, then it is the EU. But then again, we are stuck with Turkey, and I don't know. So that's what we have to do. The Netherlands cannot do it on its own, we have to keep the standard. Yes, I think that's impossible. Or we have to put a dome over the Netherlands.

M: Only over the Netherlands?

NLFG2_F3: Yes, if we want to meet that nitrogen, that standard, what the European Union wants us to meet, we cannot do it alone and then we say: yes, you have to do this with that no, the whole of Europe has to.

M: Okay, then I want one last comment, a final remark from everyone about what we talked about today. Just the last thing you want to say.

NLFG2_F3: I don't mean to say anything else. Of course, I don't know a lot about a lot of things either. I might have an opinion, but how to solve some things, I do not know either. The fact that you can talk about it, is already nice. I don't think we will solve everything; it is too much of an opinion. It's just hard, a lot of things are just hard to solve as well. Then I suppose we have some scholars for that.

M: Yes, because we don't have to solve it all ourselves?

NLFG2_F3: No, you don't, and I don't think you can. I just wanted to say that. It is a difficult issue.

M: And NLFG2_F2?

NLFG2_F2: I think we’re good like this.

(short pause)

NLFG2_M1: Yes, I suppose I have commented or said a little about every scenario and question. So, I'm actually quite happy with how we all approached the discussions here, and I thought that we agreed on a lot of things quite well and that we also thought about a number of things: well, OK, maybe, if you have it like this and like that, that we can come to a better conclusion. That we gave each other a bit of support. So that is, I thought it was fine. That's what I wanted to say.

NLFG2_F4: I agree with that. Because you are talking about it now, you think about it more yourself. While normally, you read it in the paper and then you think of what NLFG2_F3 also said: you have an opinion and I cannot do anything with it, but now you talk about it and then you think about it a little more.

NLFG2_M1: You are going a bit deeper into it.

NLFG2_F3: Yes, it is what I said before, we talk about it all this way and I say this, and I think that but yes, on some things, you just don't have a solution, at least we don't. I do think that some things can be done a bit quicker than that. I do think that some things could be done a bit faster.

M: Okay, I think the assistant had a question for NLFG2_M1.

MA: Eh, NLFG2_M1, you talked about, eh back in scenario three. Did you say something about work and then you said that if you can't find a certain, for example, dream job in the Netherlands, you can go to another country?

NLFG2_M1: That yes, that you can go to another country to-

MA: -So basically, what you're saying is that you physically move. So, for example, in the Netherlands, I wanted to become a doctor or a heart surgeon, but it is not possible in the Netherlands, and it is possible in Bulgaria. Then you think it's okay that I, a Dutchman, go to Bulgaria to get my dream job.-

NLFG2_M1: -well, if you, if you can do your dream job there, then I think you should. Because if you go for a job here in the Netherlands. Here you can't get your dream job, but you can get another job, but it doesn't make you happy. Then you don't work well in the field of work that you have studied for and I, yes, then you don't go for it fully. So I think, if you can do it in another country and offer the support that is needed there and you can do that job, then I would do it and yes, and if you indeed look for a surgeon or a medical care, look, of course, we are also very busy in the Netherlands, but if you have learned for that job and those jobs are already full in the Netherlands and you can't get one and you can, for example, in Spain or Italy or in Belgium do that job that you really want to do. You learn for it yourself; you want to do that job yourself. So, then I think you can go to another country.

NLFG2_F3: Well, there you have the EU again, free passage. Yes, I think that should be possible.

MA: But do you find that the other way round?

NLFG2_M1: Yes.

MA: So that an Italian can go to the Netherlands and get his dream job there when he can't in Italy?

NLFG2_M1: Yes, I do think so.

M: Okay, then I would like to close the discussion. Thank you for the interesting answers.