M: So I start the recording then. You should hear a sound that we are recording, right? Before we start, do you have any more questions about this research?

(long pause)

M: All right. If not, then also... e... I'm going to ask you to speak a little bit louder when you want to say something and if it happens so that you get disconnected, if something happens, then come back, please? Just click on the same link again and you will return. So maybe let's just start with each of you saying your name, just for a more general start, and then we'll get to my questions.

LTFG2_F1: Okay. LTFG2_F1.

M: Hello.

(long pause)

M: I can't hear. Who, who else? Just names, so that we can get into the conversation.

LTFG2_F2: LTFG2_F2.

M: Hello.

LTFG2_F3: Good evening. <Name>. Oh... LTFG2_F3 [laughing].

M: LTFG2_F3. Yes, don't forget what name I will use to address you [laughing].

M: LTFG2_M5, hello. I'm thinking now whether again...

LTFG2_M5: Hi.

M: Oh, I hear you, all right. And LTFG2_M4, yes? Hello.

LTFG2_M4: LTFG2_M4, yeah.

M: So... (short pause) We're trying to start our discussion, and I asked you to have a small sheet of paper for the start the discussion and something to use for writing. Do you all have it? If you don't, no big deal. But if you have it, that's a bit better. Am... (short pause) So write on that piece of paper what are the three thoughts that first come to your mind when you hear the words "European Union" or "EU"?

((~60 seconds for writing the ideas down))

M: Well, probably you are done more or less, right. It's not bad if you didn't get three. I don't know, maybe LTFG2_F1 let's start with you. So what three words did you write down?

LTFG2_F1: I could only think of two. I couldn't come up with the third one so quickly. Hm. So for me the European Union is unity (OL: vieningumas). And... the economic level. I couldn't think of anything else. These two came to me straight away. {What} the European Union is {about}.

M: Thank you. LTFG2_F3, what did you write?

LTFG2_F3: Great. Wonderful. It is us.

M: Thank you. (short pause). LTFG2_M4?

LTFG2_M4: I wrote down freedom of movement and freedom to work.

M: What was the second one? Freedom to do what?

LTFG2_M4: To work. (To work).

M: (To work).

LTFG2_M4: Yes.

M: Well, LTFG2_M5?

LTFG2_M5: It's similar to what LTFG2_M4 got. About the movement and about the work. Exactly the same.

M: And LTFG2_F2 remains.

LTFG2_F2: Free movement between countries. Support for various projects. And English.

M: Mh. Aha. Thank you. It's such a variety. Now I wanted to ask you, LTFG2_F1. You mentioned "unity". What did you mean?

LTFG2_F1: That there is no unity. But there should be. Because the European Union is like one finger. That's why I had this idea that there is no such unity, no such friendship. Of course, I'm not going to single out countries, who is how. But that's what is very {important} to me... just because we're not like friends of the backyard (OL: kiemo draugai).

M: Could you add a little bit, LTFG2_F1, why do you feel that there is not that unity?

LTFG2_F1: A... [sighing] there are misunderstandings between e... the very top people of the state. E... conflicts e... I don't really see unity anywhere [laughing]. I don't know. Although I've never understood such a thing. Like Lithuanians are very against Poles, although I don't understand it. I would even say they {Poles} are much better people, let's say, than we Lithuanians [laughing]. From experience too. [thinking, sighing]. I don't know, it's either a lot or maybe a little bit of feeling anxious. But I don't see unity. {I do not see} Mutual understanding, that there is support for each other. That should be very important. (short pause) One of the most important things.

M: What other participants think about that unity in Europe?

LTFG2_M5: Can I say? It's LTFG2_M5 here. I don't think Lithuanians are against Poles. I would be very opposed to what has been said [LTFG2_F1 laughing]. I, it depends in what region one lives in Lithuania.

LTFG2_F1: Yes, of course.

LTFG2_M5: [laughing]

LTFG2_F1: There are all kinds {of people} everywhere.

LTFG2_M5: That's the first time I've heard it {that Lithuanians are against Poles}. [laughing] Of course, if you watch those humour shows, there (they find fault with any nationality [laughing]) {meaning they make fun of any nationality}.

LTFG2_F1: (No, no, no, no) {meaning that she was not talking about humour shows}.

M: And if we talk about, say, the European Union itself. If we say Europe... as LTFG2_F1 said, she thinks that there is no unity in the European Union, that's her impression. What do you think, LTFG2_M5?

LTFG2_M5: Well, there is such a thing {meaning there is no unity}. I've been to France and I've been to No... Of course, Norway is not in the European Union. It's just Schengen where it belongs. There is this prejudice (OL: nusistatymas) against other countries. Especially those that are weaker countries.

LTFG2_F1: Yes.

LTFG2_M5: So when I happened to be in France, for example, they are very anti-English. Well, but maybe it's more of a historical thing. I don't think it hinders the economy or anything else.

LTFG2_F2: Can I say?

M: Yes, please, LTFG2_F2.

LTFG2_F2: E... It seems to me that it's more the leaders of the countries that are at odds with each other and that there is no that unity. And people, well, when I was working in England, in London, well, anyway, there I really had to deal with a lot of people from different countries, so when I would ask them, for example, about the Poles, why you don't like the Poles, and they couldn't even answer me. Because just what they see on TV or what other people say, they just accept it themselves. But there is no such thing as a specific reason why, for example, I don't like people from such and such a country. So I think it's more about the disagreement between the leaders, not about the {people} themselves.

LTFG2_F1: Yes.

M: Maybe LTFG2_M4 and LTFG2_F3 have something else to comment on this, in this discussion?

LTFG2_F3: I don't know, I would think that we need to have mutual conversations and then there will be clarity in those conversations. What about the disagreement or the dislike... dislike of a representative of a certain nation, it's a matter of, like, education. I would say so. I don't think that you can smear all the same ointment on everybody, on all the representatives of a nation. The same like there are those who do not like us, Lithuanians. Or somebody has suffered from {Lithuanians}, and I have heard that in Norway there are a lot of people who have suffered from Lithuanians and now would say, "Oh, those Lithuanians". Well, it is not like that. It's just like in other nations, there are all kinds of people. So you have to talk and you will find... the mutual understanding is in the dialogue.

M: LTFG2_M4, what do you think, do we have that unity in the European Union or not?

LTFG2_M4: On the one hand I would agree with LTFG2_F3, but on the other hand there are these main few powerful countries that I think dictate the terms to all the others. And there are the benefits and the social allowances, and for example, the farmers' troubles, and everything else. I think that in some areas we are very much lagging behind as Lithuanians. That's about it.

M: And which, which countries do you have in mind?

LTFG2_M4: I think there are the main countries. Well, one has left now. There was England, Germany and France. They're the main players I think.

[00:10:10]

M: Thank you. LTFG2_F3, you also mentioned in those words that you picked up, that well, the European Union is such a "It's us" for you, right. Again, what did you mean?

LTFG2_F3: Oh, that's a wonderful thing that there is a big group of different nations and they find a common understanding. This is a discussion that we don't... well... we don't get to common understanding, or something like that. We have to make an effort. It's not somebody else who will come and unite us. We all have to work on that issue. [dog is barking] If that's how it is going on, well, what can I say. One wants it, the other doesn't want it, what will happen {that way}?

M: Here is another question, right. Does being a citizen of the European Union have any special meaning for you?

LTFG2_F3: Well, I'll tell you. I've always felt like a citizen. Even when I wasn't in the European Union. I have always felt that I am in Europe [smiling]. And while being... in the Soviet Union, I always felt that we were a little bit different. Lithuanians. The Baltics. So I don't {feel} a big... the only difference when we joined the European Union was that it opened up big opportunities for us to feel it. Well, and anyway, well, before we were not in the European Union, you had to get visas, but now everything is easy. It looks like you've just gone to another city {when you travel to another EU country}.

M: Maybe the other participants also, I mean, what's the significance, is there any meaning to being a citizen of the European Union?

LTFG2_M4: LTFG2_M4, I could say a bit. I was in Crimea just before the annexation of Crimea. And I was on holiday there. I was there talking to the locals and I introduced myself as a Lithuanian. And they said: "You are different, different people", they said. "I have served in Lithuania", they said, "I liked very much, well, to be with you, your people, your attitude, your orderliness and everything else". So, we have to be a little bit, maybe, to get out into some discomfort and feel who we are, I think. I think the European Union anyway is, you know, a... progress, so to speak.

LTFG2_F2: I, for one, feel free. As we joined the European Union, so, well, let's say, if I don't like it in Lithuania anymore, I could always try in another country in the European Union, and I could go back to Lithuania any time. So that is that. Just like it was in the first point, free movement, I think it is the most important thing for a person to feel that freedom. When you can try, when you are given all the favourable conditions and so on. That is what the European Union means to me.

M: Thank you. LTFG2_M5, LTFG2_F1, maybe you have something to add?

LTFG2_M5: Well, I could say, about that freedom, there are still restrictions here and especially in this regard that weather you work for Lithuanians or in some stronger country, it makes a big difference how they look at the employee. Lithuania is still far behind in that regard, as well as in terms of social guarantees, in terms of everything, in terms of the attitude towards the ordinary person, and towards the ordinary worker. It is very different. We still have a bit of that, the principle of slavery is still present. If you don't like it, as they say, you can go [laughing].

LTFG2_F1: It's still Soviet legacy.

LTFG2_M5: Yeah, it's still that attitude. Especially among business representatives, it's very strongly felt.

LTFG2_F1: Yes.

LTFG2_F2: I agree with that too, actually.

M: So you mean that these things work differently in European Union countries, right?

LTFG2_M5: You feel it less when you leave {the country} a bit. You have more respect as a person, as a human being. It doesn't matter what your education is or what your status is, it's a bit different attitude than in Lithuania.

M: Thank you. LTFG2_F1, do you have anything else to add, or shall we move on to the next question?

LTFG2_F1: Next question. I agree with everything here. [laughing]

M: Okay. A... How would you describe your general attitude, outlook or feelings towards the European Union?

(long pause, thinking)

LTFG2_F2: I think it's more of a distrust, an insecurity towards the European Union itself. At least that's the thought that crosses my mind. Because it's like [clears throat]. I'm sorry. How the leaders of the countries also disagree or for example… I used to really be interested and about the European Union, and what it is, about the economy, about politics, and it seems that also about the same Lithuania, that Lithuania is very much forced to do a lot of things, which, for example, makes people have adverse attitudes. And so it seems that on the one hand there are great benefits from the European Union, well, I am talking specifically about Lithuania here, but on the other hand it seems that we are forced to do things that we might not even want to do at times.

M: Could you, LTFG2_F2, give us a quick example of what do you mean when you say "Forced to do things we might not want to do"?

LTFG2_F2: (short pause, thinking). I do have those examples, but I don't know right now, it just got stuck, but... Well, like one of more recent ones here now, that law has not been passed yet, it's just that they're talking now that the European Union is trying to... will try to somehow, well I can't put it into words, but to tax wells in Lithuania. Wells of private houses. And as we talk to people now, as we talk with acquaintances, who have their private houses, and immediately there is such adversity towards the European Union, because there is no information easily available to find out, well, to let people know - why are they going to tax? Why is this happening? And so on. Because that seems like prohibition, prohibition, prohibition. That's it. That's why I started to say that there seems to be kind of a lack of trust from the European Union. Maybe such a simple example.

M: Thank you very much.

LTFG2_M5: May I say? I would like to clarify - wells or boreholes? They are two different things.

LTFG2_F1: Boreholes, most likely.

LTFG2_M5: Boreholes I think. Well, they really won't tax granny's (OL: babytės) wells in villages. That would be absurd [laughing]. They wouldn't take the last drop of water from a person, well.

M: Do I understand correctly, it's just that, you mean, there is a directive that we have to implement, even if it might not seem quite right to us. Do I understand correctly?

LTFG2_M5: Yeah, well, because, for example, with regard to the boreholes, that's right... In any case, it is a great injustice. They've come up with a tax. People have invested a lot of money. It is very big money to install them. Because the state as such has not provided water communications to the people, it did not do it. And people have invested very big money. And now to tax - well, that's robbing people, I think.

LTFG2_F2: That's what all the people are outraged about. Then they say: "If you want to tax, then, they say, let them compensate what people have spent themselves out of their own money".

LTFG2_M5: But how will those people prove (that they have paid so much already?)

LTFG2_F1: (Exactly. No way {to prove it}. No way {to prove it}.)

LTFG2_M5: And it costs thousands. And ten or more thousand a borehole.

LTFG2_F1: Yes.

M: Thank you very much. So now I come back to the main question. I don't know, maybe LTFG2_F1, what is your general attitude towards the European Union?

LTFG2_F1: No, I pass this question.

M: Okay. LTFG2_F3, maybe you?

LTFG2_F3: I don't even know, I haven't made up my mind yet.

LTFG2_F1: [laughing]

M: LTFG2_M4, how about you? What is your general attitude? Or maybe we can say it is dual? It could also be?

LTFG2_M4: You see how it is. The European Union at times recommends or advises to do this and that, let's say. But our officials, our government, as they say [laughing], fixes it not as a recommendation but as a law, that's what it is. Well, it's just like when they used to take people out to Siberia - you need two, two thousand people to take out, but they take four {thousand} people out. We like to multiply, so to speak, and be better than somebody, somebody asks to, so there you go.

[00:19:32]

LTFG2_M5: I would very much agree with LTFG2_M4 here because we still probably have that kind of thing as it was in the Soviet era, you need to meet the plan, so let's go over it.

LTFG2_M4. Yeah. [smiles]

LTFG2_M5: They are adapting some rules from other countries, where in another country they might not fit at all. They take one thing rather than something from the whole plan. And try, and make, I think, just a chaos, that's all.

LTFG2_F3: I agree. Me too.

LTFG2_F1: Yes. I think everybody would agree.

M: If somebody would say, yes, that EU membership is beneficial for Lithuania. What benefits or advantages, let's say, could you see or list?

LTFG2_M5: For me, the benefit would be that you can travel freely, work wherever you want. It's everyone's choice what country, the European Union. Well, it broadens your horizons. Still, as for a professional, you see more of everything diverse, you gain experience. This is a good thing, I say. It's just that, as I say, the level of earnings, the difference between all the countries [dog barking] is not even and it varies a lot. That is something that is not good in the European Union, I say. Because it is then so, that some were poor and they stay poor [smiles], and others were rich and they continue remaining rich. And you can plunder there, you can put effort, well, I still don't think, in so many years, not much has moved forward here, as I see it. They say, people earn more. People do not earn more, inflation (very)-

LTFG2_F1: -(No {agrees with LTFG2_M5 that people don't earn more}).

LTFG2_M5: (-made a big effect.) We remain standing on the same level anyway. But we can move freely or work wherever we want.

M: Thank you, LTFG2_M5. LTFG2_F1, what would you see as the advantages or benefits?

LTFG2_F1: The advantages and benefits are that you can move freely. Like in your own Lithuania {meaning you go around Europe like you go around Lithuania}. You just go wherever you want. It would also be a very big plus to have e... say, one language to speak in Europe. If you go to France, you can't speak English. E... I think there are many other places where you can't speak English. Of course, I don't speak it myself. Maybe that's why I'm not so much... no... I'm not angry, but there have been times in France when we got lost at night, and we stopped the cars just... "We don't speak English". But they also answered it in English [smiles]. So maybe that. I would consider that a big minus, as I said, for unity. For me, that is very important.

LTFG2_M5: But there are no English in the European Union anymore [laughing].

LTFG2_F1: But...

LTFG2_M5: It means that here you have to choose either French or German. Those main countries. Well, it could be Italian [laughing].

LTFG2_F1: Maybe. Well, French maybe...

LTFG2_M5: English is maybe more as a global language, but they are not in the European Union anymore [laughing].

LTFG2_F1: But basically we do speak it. Wherever we go - English, English. Well, that's the way it is. Let's take any country - Norway, Sweden, Spain. Anywhere English. Whoever wants to - they speak.

M: Thank you, LTFG2_F1. LTFG2_M4, what would you see as the advantages or benefits?

LTFG2_M4: I would agree with LTFG2_M5. On movement, on work, on tourism, on seeing things, on all of those. Still there are different cultures, different attitudes, different nature. There are many, many all kinds of beautiful, beautiful nuances, so to say.

M: LTFG2_F3?

LTFG2_F3: I think it's a great advantage to see new countries, to meet people, to... other nations e... Well, how can I say this, it just got stuck now... to see a mode of {everyday} life. A... their level of education and it's very nice to see that our people have travelled, and after having worked they come back to Lithuania and are more e... more educated, more disciplined, more proper in their communication with each other. Well, I see a lot of advantages, especially now that the borders are open.

M: Thank you. And LTFG2_F2, your comment?

LTFG2_F2: I see the benefits here maybe more about Lithuania. E... Of course, on the movement, yes. But for Lithuania itself, that... Lithuanians are such that they are very slow to progress. In general, as a state. And let's just talk about the recycling. Well, it's still from the European Union that, well, they're pushing that we need to make progress on that already. Or various funds for projects, renovations and so on, I think that's a big plus here. Like for road maintenance, like earlier in the very beginning the renovation of houses has started, and so on. So that.

M: Thank you. What if it's the other way round now. If you were to say, or if somebody were to say, that membership in the European Union is not beneficial for Lithuania, what disadvantages could you list?

LTFG2_F1: Oh, disadvantages, if I may [smiles]. Maybe... from that, let's call that from the European Union it started, I'm very sorry if I offend anybody, but this is my opinion, e... those gender rights. I think that's where that publicity started. I'm [sighs] I think that's the biggest minus {means LGBTQ+ basically}. I'm looking at the future of the children, God forbid that should happen, and the downside is maybe that... Let's start with the level of the economy. When there are all these new laws that are constantly being given, that we have to do like the European Union, like the European Union to raise taxes, to raise prices, but... All right, we are going towards that European Union. But we are going one way and we are drowning on the other way. We, all people, are drowning. Let's just take the prices that are going up crazy right now and, and our government is saying that... the European Union, that's fine, but then we would also like to have salaries like those {in the EU}, pensioners would also like to have pensions like in the European Union. We are poor. And we are going to remain like that. We are already... maybe just because of that. Those are the two biggest downsides. Those... gender and... and because of those... {different salaries and pensions}

M: I, LTFG2_F1, if I may, when you talk about that gender issue, do you mean that some different values are coming to Lithuania, or what?

LTFG2_F1: [clears her throat] Very much so, very much so. In the past, there were no such things, that you are walking down the street in public and you see two teenage girls, let's say 12 years old, kissing in broad daylight. That was never the case in our life. And now everything is out free. It would be very painful for me as a mother. I would certainly not give up those children, never, but. I think it is being pushed too much, just pushed through, almost by force. Particularly with teenage children. "Shall we try? Because that's how it is in Europe."

M: Got it, thank you. Well, who, who else has something on the disadvantages?

LTFG2_M5: I would agree with LTFG2_F1 on this one, on the gender thing, so I'm also very, very unhappy with that, because if somebody wants to express their freedom, let them express it, but it's not necessary to, as I say, to scream and... Why can't we, like, normal-oriented people, scream, we are immediately threatened with the courts.

LTFG2_F1: Yeah. We have no right to our opinion.

LTFG2_M5: Well, we don't have freedom, they have rights. The right to shout something. Well, if they want to shout, let them shout among themselves, I say, but I think, perversions don't need to be in public, to be put in public. There are still human values that are normal, and healthy, and that's what needs to be talked about, not something that is a disease already.

LTFG2_F1: Yes.

M: Thank you. Maybe there are some other disadvantages or aspects? I see LTFG2_M4 wants to say something.

LTFG2_M4: No, no, I agree. I agree with LTFG2_M5.

M: But maybe there is something else, isn't there? We've already captured that, that moment-

LTFG2_M4: -and I agree with LTFG2_F1. Here, so to say, is some kind of evil.

LTFG2_M5: Very big evil, by the way.

LTFG2_F1: Very.

LTFG2_F3: Yeah, yeah, that's what's hurting my feelings as well.

LTFG2_M5: The European Union is screaming that they're Christians, and, and... Well, the countries {the totality of EU countries} are still majority Christian. But the values have really become non-Christian, completely. My grandparents would probably turn over in their graves [laughing] if they saw what is happening now.

M: Thank you. LTFG2_F3, what would you say are the disadvantages of the European Union? In Lithuania's membership in the European Union?

LTFG2_F3: I only see the advantages. It depends on the attitude. You can turn those minuses into pluses. I don't know, I think other things are more important. Minuses to minuses, well, even in a family it is not so that always everything is very well. There are some bad things, but as I said at the beginning, let's talk and we will get to the understanding. Yes, there was a discussion about the fact that the European Union decides, thinks about it, throws out this kind of thing like "You consider it", and the Lithuanian government, the government, the representatives go "Yes, yes, we are the very first ones, okay, okay, we are signing for it". That way. And there were even some incidents where almost without reading they signed, the Lithuanians agreed. Although the representatives of other European countries did not agree. Then it turned out that they {Lithuanian representatives} had not even read it.

M: Well-

LTFG2_F3: -Well, to where it's completely, well, maybe it's not so important. Let's be productive.

[00:30:36]

M: Thank you. And LTFG2_F2, your, your comment.

LTFG2_F2: I think exactly the same as LTFG2_F1, actually. It's just that I just recently was thinking about the introduction of euro. And somehow at first we didn't feel it that much, but now with prices going up so much, and it seems like they're trying to... Well, to make them {the prices} the same as in other countries, and the salaries are really different, so it's getting harder and harder. And that's the thing, actually, the difference between salaries and prices makes you want to leave Lithuania, even unwillingly.

LTFG2_M5: I was going to say about the energy independence thing. The biggest mistake that Lithuania made was to agree to the European Union's conditions to close the nuclear power plant. There are probably about 10 of those in Belgium. And that does not disturb the whole of Europe. We had to closed ours even when it was only one reactor working. We could have supplied Poland and many other countries with energy. We have signed our own death warrant now with energy. This is exactly what happened. And here we are talking about green energy - well, we do not live in Spain. So that we could supply ourselves with solar panels or windmills, like the Norwegians. We don't have the conditions, either... climatic. And it is the biggest absurd, I think, done by Lithuania. This is a very big mistake on the part of the state, I think. Now we... The Belarusians have built it {nuclear power plant}, it happened, just under our noses [smiles]. And they are laughing at us. And we will buy from them in the future anyway. We can kick as much as we want here, but when we won't receive it, we will buy from whoever has it [smiles].

M: Thank you very much, LTFG2_M5. Now let's move on to kind of situations. Imagine that a major natural disaster, such as an earthquake, a flood or a forest fire, has occurred in one of the European Union countries. How should the European Union as an institution react? (short pause) LTFG2_M4, please.

LTFG2_M4: There is a dedicated force, as far as I know. And in Lithuania, in every European Union {state} there is, there is a force made up of firefighters, of police, of border guards, and they train all over the European Union, and I think that they would send a squad or a larger number of people to help.

M: You mean the common European Union's {squad}, right, like that?

LTFG2_M4: Yes, yes.

LTFG2_M5: You mean because of the climatic conditions?

M: Well, let's say, if there was an earthquake, a flood, a forest fire in some, in some country.

LTFG2_M5: Well yes, of course the European Union has to deal with all the aid in this matter, I think and... Because if we belong to the European Union, well, and some country is in trouble - I think, everybody has to help. Whether it's a forest fire or something else, those like earthquakes, tsunamis, well yeah, I agree with that.

LTFG2_M4: Do you remember when the Poles went to fight the fire in Russian forests? Like that. Also - not the European Union, but humanly, so to say...

LTFG2_M5: There has to be humanity.

LTFG2_M4: Humanity, and all that. You have to help.

LTFG2_M5: The Poles do a lot of things right. Better than we do, I've noticed. They don't give in to influence right away. They have their own opinion. And they are more resistant to pressure than we are.

LTFG2_F3: Well, the Poles are big.

LTFG2_M5: It's not because they're big. It's just the charact... as a character trait of a country, that's all.

LTFG2_F3: Well, but they're more-

LTFG2_M5: -It does not depend on the size, you know. Not on the size. Denmark is smaller than Lithuania. But it is not much under anyone's command there, you know.

LTFG2_F3: Well, but Denmark was not enslaved {referring to the Soviet Union's occupation of Lithuania}.

LTFG2_M5: Well...

LTFG2_F3: So it is, you can feel if very much here. People who always-

LTFG2_M5: -well, but how many years have passed since the enslavement?

LTFG2_F3: How long has it been? And how long has Moses been carrying... Moses led the Jews through the desert?

LTFG2_M5: Well, if we're going to get involved into this kind of discussions, we won't get very far.

LTFG2_F3: I'm not getting involved, I'm just saying that e... There's still a lot of what we have that comes to us from the past. And that's what's holding us back. We're not free, it doesn't matter that we're in freedom. And you can feel that very much.

M: Thank you. I don't know, we were just talking about how the European Union as an institution should react. And how would you say individual countries in the European Union should react to such a disaster in another country?

LTFG2_F2: I think they should help too. Because here, each country should think, "What if this happened to us, would we expect it?" And not only the help of the European Union countries, but would we also expect from all countries. I think that if every country thought like that, maybe a lot more all kinds of problems would be solved because of that.

(short pause)

M: What would others think? Aha, LTFG2_M4, please.

LTFG2_F3: (I agree too...)

LTFG2_M4: (Also...)

[overlap because of connection glitch]

M: Aha, LTFG2_M4 started first, so then LTFG2_F3 after him.

LTFG2_M4: An example of this is with immigrants now. Well, so when we were attacked, the Estonians sent something, the Poles helped, the Austrians helped, the Hungarians helped. I think that, I think that those neighbouring countries are really, really doing something and helping.

M: LTFG2_F3?

LTFG2_F3: I agree with the fact that help is needed from every country, that's what it is when you are in one, one... well, in a group. So those other members of the group are trying to help you in case of difficulties. In case of joy, everybody is happy together.

M: And tell me, do you... how would you think, should some countries in the European Union do more than others, or if they should all do equally?

LTFG2_M5: I think that all should do equally. Neither more nor less. All carry a responsibility and all should do equally.

LTFG2_F2: Unless it is related to finance. If it is economic support.

LTFG2_F1: Yeah. [LTFG2_F1 walks away from the screen for a few seconds]

LTFG2_M5: Those who can help more, those that are financially stronger, yes, I agree, they can help more, but...

M: And Lithuania?

LTFG2_M5: Well, Lithuania, like... as much as our capabilities allow, that’s as much we have to help [smiles].

(short pause)

M: And what would you say, if such a disaster happened in one country, what should be Lithuania's reaction?

LTFG2_F3: To react and to help according to capabilities. And if in that, it's {a helping country's} internal capabilities, resources are not possible, then at least encourage others to react.

M: Did LTFG2_F2 have something to say as well?

LTFG2_F2: I would also agree, but based on practice... Well, it seems that Lithuania is mostly waiting for some kind of instructions from above [smiles]. So Lithuania could more often take some kind of responsibility, and maybe make that first step to help.

LTFG2_F1: It {Lithuania} waits for kind of encouragement.

LTFG2_F2: Yeah.

LTFG2_M5: Well, Lithuania is taking the first step. On more than one occasion. Let's take the example of Ukraine. Lithuania is always the first to help there. While other European countries {are slow to} react. Take this thing, for example, and Lithuania is always the very first on the issue of Ukraine.

LTFG2_F3: But Ukraine is not the European Union.

LTFG2_M5: But we are talking about helping other countries, regardless of whether they are European Union or not European. It's simply about humanity.

LTFG2_F3: Well-

LTFG2_M5: -How many states, a state, anyway, it has to presents itself somehow, as in another country. And when, when Ukraine, let's say, if it joins the European Union, so what, then, only then we will be good? It's nonsense. Well, if we are already supporting it {Ukraine}, then we have to support it regardless of whether it is in the European Union or not.

LTFG2_F3: Yes, yes, I agree with that. But for me, as far as I remember, the discussion, the question was about the European Union member.

LTFG2_M5: I understood that it was in general, if a country.

M: Well, let's say in the European Union, but we can go outside it if we need to.

LTFG2_M5: Yes.

M: So thank you for that example.

LTFG2_M5: Because it was exactly the same in Europe, how other countries helped. Regardless, that we... that they were not in the European Union. There was trouble in Italy and other countries contributed, those that do not even belong to the European Union.

LTFG2_F3: But this is about membership. And... In the European Union, when you're in that group, you're just, how should I put it, you're obliged (short pause) to help.

LTFG2_M5: When we were in the Soviet Union, we were also obliged [laughing].

LTFG2_F3: Oh, we better not remember the Soviet Union anymore [laughing].

LTFG2_M5: It's exactly the same. No, well, but it's exactly the same, you know [laughing]. No one asked - we had to. Exactly the same.

LTFG2_F3: Well, we had to, we had to, it was painful... Those were painful times, and I don't want to remember it at all.

[00:40:39]

M: I'm going to ask you a more detailed question now. Should we send some kind of crisis management team to that country, let's say, firefighters and doctors. A... do you think Lithuania should do that and who should bear the costs?

LTFG2_M5: Not only should, but it would be a must.

M: LTFG2_M4, I see you are raising your hand.

LTFG2_M4: I will also mention - there are those composite forces, as far as I know, as far as I have come across. Who are the firefighters, who are the police, who are the border guards. There are people who are trained, they know English and they are ready to go to any European Union country. Not necessarily {to the EU country}. The same as trainers, soldiers, from army are going to Ukraine to train soldiers there, let's say, right. It is the same with the budget. The municipality has foreseen finances for contingency occasions. The same is true for the government, which has contingency money, some money put aside, for example. For natural disasters and so on. They can use that money, let's say, to help another European country.

M: Would you say, LTFG2_M4, that Lithuania as a country should first and foremost, right, finance and provide that aid?

LTFG2_M4: Yeah, I think that's like the government's {responsibility}. There are, there are emergency clauses and laws on how they can help there, it's all written there.

M: Yeah, what the others think, how you look at it?

LTFG2_F2: I think so too, I think it should, but according to the current situation related to covid, to quarantine when there is a shortage of doctors, and when you pose the question, for example, if they should be obliged to send the doctors, and so I wonder if we would have enough doctors to do it? Well, what kind of doctors to send, because there is a shortage in Lithuania as well. That would also be a question here. And then do we have to sacrifice as a state, and that we also have a shortage of doctors, and send them, or do we just wave up our hand and only care of our own backyard.

M: Thank you. Would there be any other comments? Then I have an even closer question. Do you feel that you personally are obliged to help in some way? (short pause) We are still talking here about this natural disaster in another country in the European Union.

LTFG2_F2: I personally wouldn't feel that I would help [smiles].

LTFG2_F1: Maybe like respon... maybe that help would be like a responsibility. Like, I would help in whatever way I could. For example, if there was a war in Poland, if people didn't have a place to live, I would definitely take them into my home. I wouldn't even hesitate. But I don't think of it as a heroic act or anything. It would just be a duty, a helping hand. I think I would help. I wouldn't go to the war [laughing], but for this kind of things I would definitely help. Anything I could.

M: How do others look at it?

LTFG2_F2: I'm sorry, maybe I didn't say it right then. Because I understood the question that if the state sends soldiers, doctors and stuff like that, would I feel that I am personally helping on that, then no. But if it was as LTFG2_F1 said, then I would help in any way if needed, if I had to go and if there was a possibility, I would definitely go there to the spot.

LTFG2_F1: I wouldn't even hesitate.

M: How do others feel about that personal contribution?

(long pause)

LTFG2_F3: I think I would join to help. If I see that I can, I am needed and I am capable. For example, there was this great self-organising of volunteers. Also, whoever was able - helped.

M: You mean volunteers - for what purpose?

LTFG2_F3: I meant volunteers when the quarantine started. So I think that in this case too, if someone somewhere is in trouble, {I would} too. It's just that our people, well, they need to be organised. They lack courage in isolation. Perhaps even doubtful. It's... when some kind of organisers come, no doubt our people are good, and kind, and will definitely help.

M: I'm thinking now, LTFG2_F3, there is a question - where would you say these organisers should come from? Whose responsibility would it be to organise something for example?

LTFG2_F3: Well, you know, there are people who are leaders and they are heard [dog barks]. There are organisations. It's e... and they are heard, and they are used, and so that's where these organisers come from. Maybe there should be some kind of funding for those organisations. But I don't know, let's say we've got four... four families together, and we say: "Well, that neighbour is in a bad situation." Well, let's help as much as we can. Well, out of those four families, one of them is the coordinator [smiles].

M: Got it. I don't know, maybe LTFG2_M4, LTFG2_M5, maybe something else you want to add or let's try to move on?

LTFG2_M5: Well, with regard to the quarantine cases, as I understand it, everybody only sees what was happening on TV, well, at the checkpoints, but nobody sees what was happening in, for example, regions, in villages, where people are really united, they were helping each other a lot. And they used to bring food to those granny's and everything. Most people see what they show on TV. But what they don't see is that people don't even have to be organised, they organise themselves and help each other. In the city, maybe there is less of this. But for example in the regions, in the villages, this thing is very strong. And people really help each other.

M: And LTFG2_M5, what do you think, if it had to extend outside Lithuania, as we said, in case something is happening in a European Union country?

LTFG2_M5: Well, I don't think it has to be restric... that there has to be any restriction, if we're all in the European Union, then we're only helping the Europe... we only have to help the European Union members. Why can't we help others? Because when we are in a bad, maybe they will help us? If we only limit ourselves to the European Union, well, it will be the same as it was in Soviet times. There were those member countries, of course, they were forcibly admitted [laughing]. And we were travelling, we were travelling. I myself visited a lot of Russia and former Soviet countries in my youth. I travelled a lot. And I also travelled, just like people travel in Europe now. The only difference is what regime we belong to.

LTFG2_F2: I would also be very much in agreement of the idea that if we help, then we should also receive help. Because it could really be not once that, for example, politically other country would not really agree {to help}, but because the other country has helped them, they are also helping out of solidarity, as a kind of gratitude. That's it. So I think that really for everyone {we should provide help}.

M: Thank you. And then I have another situation. If an economic crisis similar to the one we had in 2008-2009, the so-called euro crisis, were to happen again, and some countries in the European Union were to be particularly negatively affected, or suffer more than others, how should Lithuania react then?

LTFG2_F1: [laughing] I don't think {Lithuania} would react.

M: Why do you say that?

LTFG2_F1: I don't know, but in that respect I think Lithuania would not really help with anything. It really wouldn't. Because Lithuania likes to receive. We are talking about money, economy. Get. Get. But giving - definitely not. And I think that if we are talking about the state, and not about ordinary people, I am sure that {another country} would not get help. Definitely not. That is my opinion.

M: How do others think?

LTFG2_F2: I would add to that opinion - unless they see they can benefit from that state.

[00:50:02]

LTFG2_F1: Yes, yes, that's right [laughing].

LTFG2_M5: But all states do that [laughing]. If there is a benefit, they do something. If there is no benefit, they don't. That's what economy is made of, in the same way. In the European Union, all countries do the same. Every single one. Pay attention. Really. Whether Germany or France, if there are benefits, they will help. If there is no benefit, they will not help. They may contribute a little, but, well, here's the thing... these are the rules of the game everywhere.

LTFG2_F1: That's life in general.

LTFG2_M5: Well, yes.

LTFG2_F1: Let's just take any person, if there's no benefit, he won't do-

LTFG2_M5: -Would we have gone to {joined} the European Union if we didn't get any benefit from it? We wouldn't have gone {joined}, no. That's why we went [smiles].

M: Like, I don't know, LTFG2_M4, what do you think?

LTFG2_M4: I agree with LTFG2_M5. Benefits. If we had oil, then Russians wouldn't be talking about us here, the American forces would be standing here and... [laughing].

LTFG2_M5: It would be like Norway.

LTFG2_M4: Yeah.

LTFG2_M5: The Americans discovered oil in the 70s- {meaning in Norway}

LTFG2_M4: -And we wouldn't be having a care in our heads, let's say. As far as helping is concerned, I think to some extent, as I said, there are these funds of some sort and there would be some money allocated from those funds. But I think if there was a crisis in Europe, I think we would be in need of helped, not us helping others.

LTFG2_F1: Because we are in a crisis now. We're in crisis again.

LTFG2_M5: We're always in that crisis [laughing].

LTFG2_F1: Yes. There is a very big {crisis}, or a big {crisis}.

M: LTFG2_F3, what do you think?

LTFG2_F3: I'm very much in agreement with everybody, you know, and I don't have anything to say. We are as poor as church mice. And what we can help with is just to support them morally. No, I don't see any chance {of any other help}. Now somebody comes from Poland and says, “Wow, what are the prices here, oh, how rich you are, how well you earn, if you have such prices in your shops”. What can we do? That is how we live.

LTFG2_F1: We got used to it.

LTFG2_F3: Yes. And I say to those Poles: "Well, yeah, uh... We have such prices here, but we go to shop to you." So I don't know how we can help. If it's a disaster for someone. I say - morally only.

LTFG2_M4: Shopping... When we go shopping, we help Poles [laughing].

LTFG2_F3: Exactly. Exactly. The Polish, the Latvians.

LTFG2_M5: Well, about that shopping - Germans go to France to get a hairc... to go shopping at the border. (Norwegians go to Sweden to shop.)

LTFG2_F1: (Norwegians going to Sweden.)

LTFG2_M5: About shopping, it's always like that, that in one country something is more expensive, and if it's cheaper in the neighbouring country, it's normal.

LTFG2_F3: No, but I want to go back-

LTFG2_M5: -And other countries do the same. Even the Germans themselves go shopping in another country. (If it's close to them.)

LTFG2_F3: (Yes, but we are still poor.)

LTFG2_F1: But I think that we go {to shop in Poland} substantially.

M: And LTFG2_F3, maybe finish the thought too, because somehow you still haven't said what you wanted.

LTFG2_F3: No, well, we're the little poor ones. So what can we do? I don't know, we are still a long way from improving our wellbeing and then, when a nation is in wellbeing, well then it can help other nations in case of a disaster.

M: And tell me, would it make a difference, well, if... Well, depending on which country we're talking about, which one would be more adversely affected by that crisis? Or would it not matter which country, and in any case Lithuania's position remained the same?

LTFG2_F3: Are you asking me here?

M: No, everyone.

LTFG2_F2: I suspect there would be {a difference}, if we compare, say, France and Latvia. Well, Lithuania would certainly be more willing to help Latvia or Estonia than some of the countries further away. I think there would definitely be a difference.

M: Why do you think so, LTFG2_F2?

LTFG2_F2: M... I don't know, maybe it's just that there's this feeling of mutual cooperation between the countries, a closer relationship, and... It's like with people - the closer a person is to you, the more you want to help.

LTFG2_F1: It's called neighbourhood.

LTFG2_F2: Yeah.

LTFG2_M5: Well, Poles are relatives. Latvians are also relatives. Latvians are our Samogitians (OL: žemaičiai) [laughing]. Poles, too, have been together for centuries in one union [laughing]. Well, that's why we jump to... we would jump to help the nearest ones, it's a normal thing.

M: LTFG2_M4, what do you think, would there be any difference? Depending on which country we are talking about?

LTFG2_M4: I think all countries, not necessarily Lithuania, everybody, all countries give priority to the neighbourhood. That's it.

M: A, if the crisis were to have a particularly negative impact on Lithuania. How would you say other European Union countries should react?

LTFG2_F2: I think they should help, because the European Union itself was basically created so that the weaker countries, well, to reduce as much as possible the gap between the other countries, between the better off, the bigger countries, the richer {meaning reducing the gap between the smaller, weaker countries and the bigger countries}. So I think that most countries should really help Lithuania. And make more consideration. Because our country is quite poor and quite small to be able to get out of the crisis by ourselves. Without any other help.

M: How, how others think?

LTFG2_M5: My opinion would be that the European Union was created so that the stronger countries would simply have supply of cheaper labour force. And moreover they set conditions for us. They took in the weaker countries because they didn't want to work there themselves. Norway is an example. Now the Norwegians are doing everything to just push everyone out. So, you know, the European Union was created just for that. Because it needed a market. And it needed labour force. And England saw the trouble, that's why it left.

M: How, what... Mh, please.

LTFG2_F2: But the European Union, well, how, if you read the provisions, like for example, well, what you said, it is true [laughing], but according to all those provisions to follow, well, the level should be very similar between all countries. It is a pity that it is not so. It is possible to feel a little bit, because of all the subsidies, but what concerns the cheap {labour} force, the example that comes to me right now is when Lithuania hires Belarusians. And considers Belarusians like cheap labour force. When you compare their salaries and what they do, and when you look at... well, you think about it, it is how other countries look at Lithuanians. It's exactly the same thing, I think.

LTFG2_M5: Well, what concerns hiring Belarusians or Ukrainians, you know, that's the problem of our businessmen. They get the same salaries, the Ukrainians. They are renovating houses here at us, not far away. Ukrainians are working. They earn 2000 {euros} each. If a Lithuanian was paid {the same amount}, you know, they would be happy to go to work.

LTFG2_F1: That's right, me too-

LTFG2_M5: -So it's a matter of principle. Won't... If you don't want to {to work for a low salary} - I'll give someone else more. That's the trouble with our businessmen.

LTFG2_F1: Yes. And I even had my own experience. I was a forewoman in a very big Lithuanian company. And I can compare the level of work of our Lithuanians with that of the Ukrainians. It is a disaster. The Ukrainians have actually every right to be lazy, to not work, to have their say. We Lithuanians have no rights in our own country. “If you don't like it, go away, the Ukrainians will come”. That is what people are being straightforwardly told.

LTFG2_M5: Now our businessmen are trying (to stifle us, their own people, like this).

LTFG2_F1: (Yes. Yes. To push us out.) It's actually very painful when... Of course, it's nice that we can help the Ukrainians. I used to work in a company when Ukrainians started to come, and I remember I became friends with a Ukrainian. A very nice young man. And he, I'm from a small town, and he says: "We thought you were millionaires. What cars you have! We," he says, "we haven't seen cars like that". I won't say what region he was from, but he says: "I have the feeling that I have come to the future". It's all right. We can help them. But we, Lithuanians, are the ones who suffer. We, Lithuanians, become kind of expendable to those companies, businessmen, because it is not us behind the gates, but the Ukrainians. Maybe that is the one thing why it hurts so much.

[00:59:47]

M: Thank you. Thank you. If I may I'll come back and now I'll ask LTFG2_M4. So if again, Lithuania is very negatively affected by the crisis, right, how should those other European Union countries react? To help, not to help?

LTFG2_M5: Well, if we are in the European Union, they have to help.

LTFG2_M4: Yeah. There is a general-

LTFG2_M5: -There is a commitment.

LTFG2_M4: A common money. Roughly, roughly a common approach to the whole thing. I think they should help somewhat. Just like we, I say, as a country of this size, I think, if it was very difficult for somebody. Although, there have been moments like that. Remember the emigrants. When the migrants went through Greece, we were very reluctant to take them in. But when we were attacked here from Belarus, then we shouted at everybody, “Save us! Help!" And then the other countries on the coast, let's say, said "You didn't help us then". Well, there are a lot of nuances here. I think (short pause) to be considered, so to speak.

M: Understood. LTFG2_F3, what do you think?

LTFG2_F3: I agree with LTFG2_M4. What more can you make up.

M: Again, should there be any difference whether some of the European Union countries should help more or somehow less?

LTFG2_F3: I would say that all should help equally. Well, why should there be {differences}? Well, help based on their lif... on their level of living. No, it's not so that there is one who has a lot, so he has to give a lot. Well, you have to look proportionately to the whole thing. Because you don't have to insist that, well, he's rich, so he also doesn't like gifts. He doesn't need to be given any gifts, because he is already rich. Well, no, no, that way no, sorry, we don't play that kind of game.

M: How others think?

LTFG2_M5: It seems to me that in the European Union there are funds for such cases. I don't think, if we are in the European Union, this is not foreseen. All the countries are contributing to some extent financially... obligations they have. This has been the case all the time in all countries, and I think that is the case in the European Union. I do not know exactly, but if it is not already there, it would be very foolish, so to speak, not to have the funds for it. For emergencies or crises or whatever. Because there was the example of Greece, they allocated, well, and everything. Somehow it is foreseen.

LTFG2_M4: There is, there is. There must be. Because also Lithuania, all the countries are contributing some of this. We get it through the funds, but Lithuania has to contribute something too.

LTFG2_M5: What we are receiving, we will have to pay back. It just looks like we are given it for free. Nothing is given for free [laughing]. We also have obligations for that.

M: If Lithuania were to receive this financial support from other countries, would we have to obey certain restrictions or rules?

LTFG2_F1: I think not. That would be nonsense. It would be like buying then.

LTFG2_M5: It's like manipulation then.

LTFG2_F1: It's kind of manipulation, blackmail. It's... No, it shouldn't be like that.

M: What others think? Well, there would be conditions for, say, some kind of use of that support, right. What do you think? LTFG2_M4?

LTFG2_M4: So look at Ukraine now, let's say, yeah. They're fighting there now, Russia, and let's say the big countries. America there, and then the European Union. So they're putting conditions. One side is setting conditions, the other side is setting conditions. I think whoever pays, the other dances their dance, you know. It's not... The cheese is free, as they say, only in the mousetraps [laughing]. That's it.

M: I don't know, is there anything else you want to add to the LTFG2_F3?

LTFG2_F3: Well, nothing is for free.

LTFG2_M4: Yes.

LTFG2_F3: So it would be naïve to expect {that there would be support without conditions}.

M: OK. Thank you. Here is now the last situation. We will discuss again. Again, we know that there are inequalities between countries, right, and inequalities between people within countries. Do you think that the European Union should have some kind of common programme or fund to reduce social inequalities? Having in mind the growing income gap in society and so on. Why would you think that it should or should not?

(long pause)

M: Please, LTFG2_M4.

LTFG2_M4: I think it is happening. It's happening bit by bit. Because we, for example, compared to those, as I mentioned, those main European countries, states, we are some 20-30 years behind. So that means we are still lagging behind those 20-30 {years}. And we are catching up a little bit in some regards. In some regards we are still... still even further behind. That's just what I think.

M: What others think?

LTFG2_F3: LTFG2_M4 said it nicely - 20-30 {years}. I would say 50 {years}.

LTFG2_M4: [laughing].

LTFG2_M5: It will not be enough 50 {to catch up with other EU countries}. They say that after 50 years under occupation, it will take another hundred to get back {to the level of a free country}.

LTFG2_M4: One generation. We are one generation behind [laughing].

LTFG2_M5: [laughing]

M: What do you think, LTFG2_F1, should the European Union have some kind of common fund or something like that to reduce inequality?

LTFG2_F1: I think, I think there should be. Like there should be some common laws that apply to everybody in general. It wouldn't matter then what the economy is. I think it should be. Maybe it would make the difference.

M: How many... Aha, LTFG2_M5, please.

LTFG2_M5: I was going to say, I think the biggest problem is that they define, for example, let's take agriculture. It {the EU} sets the conditions of what we have to grow. That is the biggest problem. Lithuania was very strong in agriculture before the war. It exported a lot. It was very, well, at European, if you take European countries, probably was among the top three in terms of strength in agriculture. Now we are being told the conditions what we have to grow. So if we want to stand strongly on our feet and be strong, we must not be told what to grow. We are now practically growing cereal crops, nothing else. Livestock farming is totally collapsed in our country.

M: Thank you. LTFG2_M4, please.

LTFG2_M4: LTFG2_M5 mentioned the nuclear power plant. I think that the nuc... the nuclear power plant was simply taken away, {because} how do we beggars have such a power plant? The same with farming. Last year we grew by country, by area, we rank almost the first places in the world. On growing wheat. So they see, that we, beggars, we are still doing quite well, so it is needed to put some restrictions on us. That's all.

LTFG2_M5: Well, now they've put it on that we have to revive the grasslands. So where are we going to grow it {wheat}? [laughing]

LTFG2_M4: And the payments to farmers are much lower than, say, for the main European Union countries that I mentioned. And yet somehow we manage to grow it well.

LTFG2_F1: Anyway, we manage to do everything. We get a salary of 300 {euros}, but we somehow spend 500 {euros}. Where we get the 200 {euros} from, I don't know.

LTFG2_M5: It shows that people have a lot of informal {shadow} money, and they work informally.

LTFG2_F1: [laughing] I'm not talking about myself, I say it in general.

LTFG2_M5: [laughing] If everything was right, it wouldn't be so that you earn 300 and spend 500. It would be that you also spend 300. It would be like in Germany, like in France. And here it is somehow the other way around [laughing]. The black market is still very strong here [laughing].

LTFG2_F1: Oh, it's very clear with that. It's very strong [laughing].

M: I don't know, LTFG2_F2, do you have any other comments?

LTFG2_F2: On the inequality thing, on the whole business thing, yeah, I agree, also that the European Union or the stronger countries should really contribute somehow out of that common budget. But what is missing, at least for me, is that there seems to be a lot of support for businesses, but for ordinary people, for workers, well, that inequality is very much felt. And maybe there is that support from the European Union, but it is not accessible to everybody, or there is a big lack of information. So that, because now it seems there are many businesses created, new ones, and they are created from that support, but for ordinary people as it was, let's say, as they earned little, that's the same they earn. So there is the gap, even in Lithuania itself, it is felt between people and businessmen. So I think that first of all in Lithuania itself there should be, well, a similar equality between people, and then we should be on a par with other countries.

[01:10:24]

LTFG2_F1: And in order to get that support, let's say, our Lithuanians are really entrepreneurial, very smart. Especially young people now. But to get this support without knowing people, it is possible to say, would take a very long time and it would be very difficult ways to go. I have an example of my own, in my own environment, where only with {the help of} a few very influential people they got that support for business very easily. Because I myself was weaving this idea of getting support, but when I started to look into it, I would not get it without knowing people. And even if I get it, it will take a lot, a lot of nerves, so I am thinking, if it is really worth for me to go humiliate myself, to beg, so that to create something good for Lithuania. So I think I have let my hands down here. Because to ask for support, it feels like you're asking for a charity, like an allowance of some sort.

M: Got it. LTFG2_M4, it seems you wanted to say something, right?

LTFG2_M4: I don't know, there's a word like that [laughing], Russian of course, not a nice one maybe, but there is "blat" [laughing].

LTFG2_F1: Yes, yes, blat. There is a very big blat in Lithuania. Crazy big.

LTFG2_F2: Maybe I can still say a little bit to the topic. Well, my father-in-law works in Northern Ireland and he hasn't been able to come back to Lithuania for 10 years because he is earning his pension. So that he can live with dignity in Lithuania. And that inequality between pensioners, say, in Lithuania and abroad is so great. And when you think, for example, that, well, is it really worth living in Lithuania, when everything seems, say, even if salaries and pensions are going up, but prices are also going up, and you can feel so much that gap. And when there is no choice left for a person, and it looks like that - does Lithuania do anything for its people? This is not even about the European Union anymore. Because it looks like the state, like Lithuania is trying to get that money, and that support, but where is it spending all that support? It somehow seems it is not visible in Lithuania.

LTFG2_F1: And we won't see it.

LTFG2_F2: Yeah.

M: Now a related question. Do you think that in Europe, the European Union, should have a Europe-wide programme to tackle unemployment in all countries? Again, financed by all the countries of the European Union?

LTFG2_M4: The Lithuanians are funding unemployment, heavily [laughing].

M: What do you mean?

LTFG2_M5: So they are working as labourers, so to say, in those countries, there is a very small percentage of those who work a skilled work. There are factories, there are all sorts. Like in our country, as you have mentioned, e... Ukrainians and Belarusians and from other countries, the same way ours - Lithuanians fill a lot of, a lot of jobs, hard jobs, not easy jobs, but hard jobs.

LTFG2_F1: But I'm in favour that it's better to work hard, as I say, for some couple of years {in other countries}, but to plow yourself the wallet, than to plow your whole life here {in Lithuania} and you will never have anything. I myself also emigrated, I only endured 1.5 years. Yes, the money was very big, but for some reason I came back here to Lithuania. But... I think most people would leave again. Because let's take an example. We have to work 12 hours here. Let's take kind of an average, I don't know. And not to earn even 1 000 euros, that is a disaster. For me, the most disgusting thing is when those millionaires on television are all saying: 'You work hard, work hard and you will be millionaires'. Never. Never if a man works clean he will be a millionaire. Of course, I maybe went off topic here, it's a bit like that [smiles].

M: But if we go back to the European Union... level programme to tackle unemployment, to which we, all countries, would contribute, what do you think? What about this idea?

LTFG2_M5: To tackle unemployment?

M: Yes.

LTFG2_M5: I think the first thing we have to do to tackle unemployment, maybe we should start with equal pensions for all {EU citizens}.

LTFG2_F1: Yes.

LTFG2_M5: At equal level. In France, the pension is over 1,000 {euros}. A minimum wage that a person who drives a garbage truck, as the French say, a "black man", gets 1100 {euros} to hands.

LTFG2_F1: My aunt has lived in Germany for 10 years, she receives a German pension of 1500 euros. This is incomprehensible {in Lithuania}.

LTFG2_M5: I understand, there can be a difference of 20, okay, 30 percent between the stronger and weaker countries in the European Union. But here we have 100 and 200 per cent differences. In salaries.

LTFG2_F1: Yes.

LTFG2_M5: This is the biggest nonsense, I think. Then it is so that there is no benefit from the European Union. If we are already in the European Union, well, there has to be at least some similarity. There can't be such a huge difference between stronger and weaker countries.

M: Is there anything, I don't know, that you would like to add, to agree or to object to?

(short pause)

LTFG2_M4: When it comes to raising taxes, it's the European Union. But when, when [laughing] it is about getting salaries, then they are silent. That's it.

LTFG2_F1: It's like I said before in the first topic, that for everything we look at the European Union, so that it is beneficial to them, but when it comes to us, Lithuanians, and our lives, then there is no longer such a word as "European Union" [laughing]. Well, when did we pay 10 euros for toilet paper? To exchange to litas, I have forgotten how much it would be? 30 litas or what?

M: 40.

LTFG2_F1: That's it. That's unthinkable. Was it like that? It's-

LTFG2_M5: -It's also incomprehensible with cars now. With the ecological tax.

LTFG2_F1: Yes.

LTFG2_M5: For what {money} that Lithuanian is going to buy that electric car-

LTFG2_F1: -for nothing.

LTFG2_M5: He, he has no chance. One hardly affords to buy a ten year old car. (Hardly.)

LTFG2_F1: (Well yeah.)

LTFG2_M5: You have to save not for a year, but for many years to buy it. And if the whole population goes into credits, into loans, what will we get to?

M: LTFG2_F3, what do you think?

LTFG2_F3: Oh, it's a difficult question and answer [smiles]. I don't know, I agree with everybody. There's a reason why people go abroad to work in irelands, norways, to earn their pension. And those who have left in their 40s, they do not come back just so to earn money. And they say: "I won't come back as long as I can work. Because I will want to live in Lithuania, but I don't want to be a beggar, to live poor and not have a full fridge at home".

LTFG2_F2: Can I speak again?

M: Yes, yes.

LTFG2_F2: About the unemployment. It is also like an example, that when I was working in London, and before that, before I left {Lithuania}, I was working as a waitress. And also during my studies, right after school. And I felt that very much, that I went from being a simple waitress to being an office worker and an accountant {in London}. Without any education. And I came back to Lithuania just because we wanted to raise our children in Lithuania. And now when I'm looking for a job, it's already the moment that I have to look for a job, that... There are so many requirements for employees! And there is everywhere {a requirement of} higher education, so that even if I had that higher education degree, they require experience right away. And it's not just England, I know there are other countries that have better jobs that don't look so much at that degree. And in Lithuania, that's actually a very, very big problem. And I think that also... Well, for example, I think I'm a really good employee and I think I'd be a good accountant. But here in Lithuania, I wouldn't even be able to work as an accountant by law, because I would have to graduate in {higher education} in that speciality. So here I think that maybe from that education they should start solving unemployment problems.

M: Understood. And if, say, in one country, again, unemployment is particularly high, should the European Union try to reduce it somehow?

(short pause)

LTFG2_F1: Of course.

LTFG2_F3: I think-

LTFG2_F1: -Like... Go ahead, LTFG2_F3.

LTFG2_F3: I think that priority should go... first should be the government of the country, where that unemployment is, they should do something about it. And then, when seeing their efforts, the European Union should of course also contribute. But it's not that we sit and wait for the European Union to come and do it for us. We have to do it ourselves. I am not talking about the Lithuanians. I am talking about everyone, all nations. That they have to start by doing it themselves. Just like at home. Well, your neighbour is not going to come and do your repairs.

LTFG2_M5: If you pay, he will come [laughing].

[01:21:02]

LTFG2_F1: Unless it's a lonely neighbour [laughing].

M: LTFG2_M4?

LTFG2_M4: Remember Greece. When they, when they were attacked by these migrants and they started to stumble, well, back in the day, that whole economy, unemployment, everything else. Look at what their pensions were, what their wages were. They used to get a pension of 1,200 - 300 {euros}. When it started to get smaller, but they didn't want to go to work. They want to get, they wanted to get like, like they got, but they didn't want to cut their budget. Because those migrants attacked, they then threatened with those migrants. "If you don't give us, we will let all those migrants lose through the European Union". And that is a tale without an end. And they, I think, are really much better off and they've demanded and obtained something they wanted.

LTFG2_M5: Well, northerners have always had to work harder than southerners.

LTFG2_M4: Yes [laughing].

LTFG2_M5: For them, for them, shorts and a T-shirt are enough for the whole season, and for us we still have to think about fur coats.

M: LTFG2_F3, you wanted {to say} something, right?

LTFG2_F3: I wanted to agree, but LTFG2_M5 finished. That's right, the sky helps them too, with the sun.

M: LTFG2_M4, did you also want to add something?

LTFG2_M4: Well yes, I agree that they [laughing] don't need thick sweaters and jackets, less expenses. But they still want to get it with dignity. Our mothers or fathers or grandparents don't really get such pensions as they {meaning Greeks} do. But they have demanded and obtained, well done.

M: And should Lithuania, say, contribute to reducing unemployment in another European Union country, even if it means some extra costs for us as Lithuania?

LTFG2_F1: I think that's what is happening with Ukraine. We are helping.

M: And what about a European Union country?

LTFG2_F1: Oh, I misunderstood {the question}.

LTFG2_M4: We are probably the poorest, so what can we help?

LTFG2_M5: Well, we do help. We are now, for example, helping emigrants {meaning immigrants}, students with free education. While our children pay for their education.

LTFG2_F1: Yes, they pay for everything.

LTFG2_M5: There is a very big injustice about that.

LTFG2_F2: What I think is that if Lithuania would deal with its own internal problems, what is related to unemployment, then maybe it could help other countries. Because now it looks like they can't deal for themselves, so how could they help another country?

LTFG2_M5: You are right. First we need to get our own kitchen in order.

M: Thank you. Now we are slowly moving towards the end. And today we discussed the European Union, we touched on various areas such as social disparities, economics. Perhaps there are other areas that you think are important in terms of relations within the European Union and mutual support within the European Union?

(long pause)

LTFG2_M5: Well, it's very good that young people can study abroad. It's a very good diversity of experience. Even the difference of studies there, it is different than here, still, the methods are quite different, differ a little. Because my own son is studying in Denmark, and he's very satisfied. Because the horizons are broadened somewhat, and it's very good that young people can go and study. And we {in Lithuania} have good {studies}, we can't complain about that.

M: What did you say?

LTFG2_M5: I say our studies are good too, we can't complain [laughing].

LTFG2_F1: It's just that our studies are very expensive.

LTFG2_M5: Well, it's even more expensive there. It's even more expensive there.

LTFG2_F1: According to... Yes, but it depends on a {study} programme.

LTFG2_M5: It's even more expensive there [laughing]. There maybe... much more expensive.

LTFG2_F2: So maybe, I think that maybe the European Union could pay more attention to that, to the studies, so that there are more places... for young people to study for free. Maybe there could be more attention towards youth employment. Not just to build buildings, something else, but just to, I don't know, to cooperate, to take example from other countries, how they do things and so on. I don't know, maybe it's more, because I'm quite young myself, I do notice that there is a lack of support for young people. Starting with activities, hobbies, to buying accommodation and so on.

M: How do others feel? For relations between countries in the European Union, right, for those exchanges between countries, what else could be relevant that we might not have discussed today?

(long pause)

M: Okay, I will ask further. What do you think about the topics discussed, to what extent and how do they relate to Lithuania's future in the EU?

(long pause)

LTFG2_M5: It seems to me that there is a little bit of discrimination... of weaker countries than big countries... more powerful European Union {countries}. So it is the most important that this goes away. If there is no such... discrimination, if it is weaker {the discrimination} or whatever, then the European Union itself will be stronger, in general, than it is now. (short pause) It just has to be more united (OL: vieningesni).

M: How would you say, LTFG2_M5, that unity would manifest itself? What would that look like?

LTFG2_M5: Well, let's just take economic decisions. Well, maybe the conditions should be the same for everybody, not some kind of exclusivity, some can do this, some can't do that. About the same payments to farmers, there is a big difference. In England, when they paid for sheep five times more that for one who raised sheep in Lithuania. We have a bigger winter season, which is why the support should be bigger. Because it is harder for the farmer to maintain. Thus there should still be some kind of a healthy calculation, and not like this, that there is some kind of payment and support, but without taking into account the climatic zones and everything else. Even the construction itself is more expensive here than in other countries. Compared to like Greece or Italy. A lot is related. And Lithuania is practically based mostly on construction and information technology. Those are the bases. And then there are the big pharmaceutical companies. Where they have a bigger budget than Lithuania [laughing].

M: LTFG2_M4, I see you have something to say?

LTFG2_M4: No, I fully agree with LTFG2_M5. What else is there to say [smiles].

M: Well, again, thinking about Lithuania's future in the European Union, about what we discussed, maybe {there is} something else?

LTFG2_M4: This, well, we sell labour force and we get some kind of payment for it through {EU} funds, through something. Well, there's a mutual benefit I think for now. If it goes away, I think it will be bad.

M: LTFG2_F1, what do you think?

(short pause)

LTFG2_F1: I pass it [laughing]. I don't know, I was just thinking about it now, I was drowning in my thoughts.

M: LTFG2_F3.

LTFG2_F3: It seems to me, I have kind of two thoughts in me. We want to receive but we don't want to give. That's one thing here. And the other is that I'm very, how to say, offended or something... I don't know how to say it, but our national food dishes. The European Union comes along and says: “No, you must not do that here, you must not produce it, and it is forbidden here”. All over the European Union, that national food, for example, smoked sausages, sausage rolls and all that. What has been here for centuries with us. Right. And nobody there... And every nation has such products. But for the European Union for some reason it seems that it is wrong and let's ban it. And we can't get anywhere with them {national dishes}. Well, thank goodness we still have the old people here who are keeping these traditions alive, so maybe somehow we will preserve, maybe things will work out some day.

[01:30:33]

M: LTFG2_F2?

LTFG2_F2: A... now that you've touched on the products, I am actually thinking from the other side that it's very good about those requirements, e... how much there is regarding home applian... not appliances, but products, what concerns medicines and so on, that there are similar requirements everywhere. And also what is related, for example, to children, small children, where there are general requirements, like how much there can be in one product of one substance or another and so on. So I think that from that point of view, that is good. I don't know what else. At the very beginning, I think I have answered this question about the future of Europe. That if, well, it seems that I would like to believe that people would be better off with the European Union and much, well, better off than they have been. And that ordinary people, I don't know, ordinary people would feel, maybe, more trust in the European Union, and that the European Union would consider more ordinary people, not just the government, what the government says. And what they {the government} need.

M: Thank you. So now let's maybe try to summarise. So I would like for a final maybe comment or thought or summary from each of you, right, how would you make the last statement of this discussion?

(long pause)

LTFG2_F3: Well, that we are probably all thinking in the same way. About what we have discussed here today. That we have the same views. Well, at least, I don't say 100 per cent, but that's how we see ourselves, that's how we see ourselves in Europe.

M: Well, would you summarise it somehow, LTFG2_F3? You say, "This is how we see ourselves". How so? How would you say?

LTFG2_F3: Well, how we see ourselves - neither... not very... We are not rich. Very ambitious. E... and we would like to be seen more.

M: Thank you. I don't know who - LTFG2_M4, maybe your last comment, what about the European Union?

LTFG2_M4: I would say a proverb. Why, why poor? Because stupid. Why stupid? Because poor. That's it. Maybe that would be my summary [laughing]. That's it. Oh, and, as LTFG2_F3 said, we have similar thoughts, we didn't diverge a lot in the discussion, but we also stick to our opinions about the European Union.

M: And LTFG2_M4, now, well, "poor" is clear to me. And the stupidity, what's behind that?

LTFG2_M4: Well, the stupidity is maybe not so much that we are literally stupid. But as I said, we are years behind the major countries. That's it. We are behind in everything. We are lagging behind in many things. Of course, the main thing there now is that new technology, so maybe we are on a similar path in that regard. And yet, in terms of funding, we cannot compete with those big countries. That's it. And anyway, let's look at the, at... if we take out of picture our big cities, and look at the province, look at that [laughing] at those little people, well, then, say, we're far, far behind. That's it.

LTFG2_F2: I'll say one more thing for a moment too. That after all this discussion, the idea comes that the European Union has its disadvantages and its advantages, but Lithuania lacks the wisdom to take more of those advantages from the European Union.

M: Thank you. LTFG2_M5? What is your summary?

(short pause)

LTFG2_M5: We, Lithuanians, need to be a bit braver. It's like they say, "Poor... Poor because stupid." Lithuanians are not stupid. Only maybe not so determined... very little of it. To take and do. Lithuanians are very clever. For some reason, when we go to some other country, they turn around very quickly and they do business very quickly. Maybe it's because we are at home, and here we lack courage. Because what the neighbour will think, what someone else will say, what I will look like. And when we leave, it does not matter how we look and what they think. They go and do it. So maybe that's what Lithuanians need. And then we will really be strong. In the common European Union. Well... if you look at it that way, it's just a lack of determination. And to remove those constraints. Because the state, well, it says - do business, but when you start to do business, it pulls your pants down. It doesn't let you get on your feet at first. Between companies, for LLCs there is one set of conditions, for companies another set of conditions. There has to be the same conditions for all to do business. But they make some kind of distinctions. So, how will people do it then? They should be happy that they are finding their own jobs and starting to make money themselves. Then there is no need for the state to support and think of something.

M: Thank you. And LTFG2_F1, your final comment.

LTFG2_F1: LTFG2_F2 said a lot of my thoughts, and LTFG2_M5. I almost thought they were telling my thoughts. I think that really, we Lithuanians are very smart, very hard working, very determined. Resolute. But I don't know, maybe we lack self-confidence. Maybe we as people do not have that mutual unity, say, we could make such a riot against our Seimas, that we could really change something. Just like other states - they go {to the streets}, they fight so much. I always watch with a white envy. And we will never do it like that. Ever. Because we either are afraid, or there is some situation. But if there were such a situation, I would definitely go, and I would do everything for us to be heard or feared for by our state, that we were visible in that European Union not as cowards, not as some beggars. But just as determined, resolute, those who want to be seen. So that is what we lack most. We are oppressed. We just, as they say, “We are all courageous in a smoking room”. In public - it is over. Gray little mice. So that's it.

M: Thank you very much. Then I... I don't know, maybe there is something else, maybe you had some idea, but I did not ask about it? (short pause). Then I stop {the recording}.