M: Okay, let's start. I would like to start with the following question: what are the first three thoughts that you think of when you hear the European Union or the EU. You can take a few minutes to think. If you wish, you can write down the three thoughts on a blank paper or in an empty Word document.

(long pause)

M: Of course, it's also enough if you only come up with one or two {thoughts}, it doesn't have to be three, two is good enough.

(short pause)

M: If someone is ready to start, just get started.

FIFG1_M2: Well yes, I can probably come out of the box first so to speak [coughing] I have three lines here, in the first row I have written three words. There I have written community, values and solidarity it is perhaps the more, most diffuse of these my thoughts on EU. I might try to open it up {explain more}. A European Community as well as a connection like that [hmm] not only geographically, but therefore I wrote values and solidarity, so it is not just that geographical connection, but a fundamental western view on society and structures from a political angle and other angles. I don't know if I need to open it up much more, but I hope you keep up with my thinking. On the second I just wrote short and concise euro, so money, concretely, it’s pretty simple. For me, I know that they do {euro as a currency} not apply to the whole of EU, not all countries are part of that EMU. So, for me it is some kind of symbol of the EU, especially when I now, well, nowadays I have quite little cash on me, but it is still my currency that I live with. On the third row I have two words, the first one is economy and second one mobility. I was also going to write there maybe border freedom, between countries, I am referring to Schengen... And that kind of mobility. It's not really possible to… okay economy and mobility also there are some similarities and aspects closely connected together but then it's still quite different wholes, so I don't know if it became three different things I thought about. For me, economics and mobility are a certain in the same sphere, so to speak. These were now the first {things which came to mind}, I probably have a lot of other things as well, which are perhaps more work-related, but these were now the ones who, when you ask like that, these were now the first three fastest.

M: Thank you very much! Does anyone want to continue?

FIFG1_M1: I can go ahead and continue right away because FIFG1_M2 had stolen my list so it's almost like you think you've hidden a camera here in <place of residence>. I've kept these much shorter and concise. In the first line I have written euros, very concretely and that is something that I think our generation has experienced as like a concrete benefit and something specific that has come with the EU. Then I have on different lines free movement and free trade, and it is for me central {for the EU}. FIFG1_M2 had chosen to put them together here and then you had a third one that was more of that philosophical and diffuse dimension. But I had left them out, as an accounting economist I drive for the concrete stuff. So, the euro, free movement, and free trade, it is the EU in a nutshell for me.

M: Thank you!

FIFG1_F4: You might think that the camera is here too [laughter]because there's the same stuff on my list. The first thing I thought about was freedom of movement and trade, where I probably also thought about the euro, which is something that FIFG1_M1 says that we have perhaps experienced as a concrete thing, but also this freedom of movement is quite important to me. And then I also think that a common value base and culture and thoughts if you think about both climate and human rights and everything so, it is also something... And then cooperation and togetherness came third on my list and then I think about cooperation both within and also cooperation outside the EU. And then this issue also comes with maybe we do not have a common defense but nowadays that we live in a situation when we may live in a little more [hmm] troubled times in many ways and in that way, it is also a community and a cooperation that may be needed in these times also against the rest of the world. I'm not saying we should work against the rest of the world, maybe with the rest of the world, but together.

M: Thank you.

FIFG1_F3 Yes, my list is pretty similar too. In first place, or on the first row, democracy and human rights, which you think is one of the great goals of the EU that it also often... I also emphasize it in my teaching, for example, it is present in this way. On the second line euro and on the third internationalism, or this possibility of cooperation both culturally and politically and economically, so quite similar here.

M: Okay, thank you all for your answers. We go to the next question, how would you describe your overall opinion and attitude towards the EU. Always ask me to repeat the questions if you are having a hard time hearing.

(long pause)

M: If someone feels brave, just get started.

FIFG1_M1: I can be brave. I'd say my attitude is positive. I do not need to think about it much, I have a positive attitude towards the European Union, and I am often struck by how much negative is put, so to speak, on the shoulders of the European Union. It is agricultural subsidies it is the fishing industry that is made more difficult, as well as problems in any workplace regarding some new "health and safety regulations". It always comes from the EU, and the stupid ones has to do with the EU stuff... I often notice that I bother with these things. We are nevertheless members of the European Union. And it is not like that it is the EU that comes here and decides how to do things in Finland. The Finnish people have, through democratic elections, been able to participate in electing representatives who are involved in making co-European decisions and then we choose to ratify them. And that's something that I am often bother by, it's pretty simple populist, especially a certain party that is holding a "gasoline election" at the moment so they often drive a line where they criticize this and in me it strengthens a more this positive image. I think we are doing the right thing when we work together with the EU.

M: Thank you.

FIFG1_F4: I can also sit here as well and say that the first word that came before me is positive, a positive attitude. I have had that since the beginning and thought it was good that we joined, and I cannot say that I would think it would have been… yes, we've had our ups and downs and so on… But I couldn't imagine either that we are not a part {of the EU}. You often think that way and what would have been… So, I don't know, positive attitude and it {membership} has brought with it many good things.

FIFG1_M2: Yes, I agree here. The first word was positive, then I wrote benefit, in the same ways as FIFG1_M1 and FIFGI_F4, I see it as beneficial community that we Finland are actually a part {of EU}. I had not perhaps thought it like FIFG1_M1 that we are there voting and making decisions. But I see that we have the opportunity to be involved in the fact that we [hmm] we are subjects to the same directive if we call it by that. There is so much more that it brings with it, the EU, standards and ways of doing stuff also a lot of our legislation, I have to admit that I have noticed that it has been updated and improved {the legislation} also in Finland. I think it's a very useful and important thing that we're a part of it because I think we'd be that one in Finnish, you would call "takapajulla" {remote/uncivilized} if we weren't in the EU.

FIFG1_M1: And we are not now?

FIFG1_F3: I'm going to continue and say positive. It is clear that if you remember the EU when we voted to join the EU, I actually voted no, so I started with a negative attitude but today... you see the positive benefit and what opportunities it can provide for cooperation, both for as an individual and for the country and for other countries, so positive I would say.

M: When you FIFG1_F3 talk about opportunities, is there something specific you think about, financial opportunities, or?

FIFG1_F3: Well, perhaps it is most expressed there {in economic cooperation}... perhaps economically if we think about the enlargements that have taken place towards Eastern Europe that they can also join... and high economic standards and hopefully democratic ideas that are spreading and opportunities to study and so on.

M: Thank you. To the next question, if it was said that EU membership has been beneficial for Finland, what benefits would you list? You may already have discussed this, but if you still have something to say, please do so.

FIFG1_M2: I could, I didn't write anything there but I can continue on that benefit a little bit more... so those advantages of being able to be involved in developing not only Finland and Europe, but I think that here with the EU and our community here at European level there are of course countries that are not fully part of the EU. There are, of course, some exceptions in Europe. But Europe is one of those continents and market areas and economies that drives many things forward and I see it even as a world leading area that not only on sustainability issues but many other European values such values that are close to my heart. If we weren't there, I would feel at least a little lost and disappointed not to be able to lead and steer the ship, so to speak.

FIFG1_F3: I think the benefit here too... if we think about all the climate agreements and things like that, you probably need to have more countries plugged in, they wouldn't turn into anything if we individually had to make these decisions that you have... agree in the EU what your objectives are. You go further together. So personally, everything from free trade and travel and things that you now think about that you have benefited from personally. Exchange of other schools and so on.

FIFG1_M1: Was is the benefit that we should mention?

M: Yes, what benefits would you say our EU membership-

FIFG1_M1: -Yes-

M: -has given to us Finland as a country.

FIFG1_M1: Yes, I understood it right. For me, a great advantage and something that perhaps over time and with age have understood to value is that Finland through its EU membership has become more European and more Western European. Whether we want or not, Finland was very close to Soviet Finland. We were probably quite a liberal eastern state, but it was not the Finland we grew up in and started school in the early 80's. There were ordinary cars for ordinary people made in Russia and they were called Lada and we have had the same rail network as Russia and our biggest trading partner was in the east, so we were VERY east oriented. And for me, it feels like this when you can look back and see... Finland has probably always wanted to be somewhere in between, but this EU membership and that benefit was that we opened… and changed the railway from the Russian to the European... We haven't done that yet, but figuratively speaking that's what we did. We went for work tools and thought models and ways that were more Western European and that way we approached Central Europe. I cannot put any concrete benefit on what it has brought {EU membership}. But everyone understands that a lot has happened with big changes in Finland that have kind of driven us west. Then you can go into a geopolitical discussion and think how much of it was really things that the neighbor in the east pushed for, but it is perhaps irrelevant.

FIFG1_F4: I am perhaps also thinking about it that we have sort of become a country that is somehow taken more into account, in that we are part of the European Union. We are not a "nobody" but we are perhaps something that you can count on, we belong to these Western countries and Western culture has become stronger and when we look back and get a little more years on the neck, you start to appreciate this more and see it with a longer perspective. But what is a tangible benefit is transparency and freedom of movement and internationalization of companies. And then also such a thing, how students in today's situation can freely move between different colleges and have different colleges and other universities and so on have exchange in a completely different way than how it was before. And I think this has a lot to do with the EU, there are more or a lot of more opportunities. The same applies to research cooperation, so now I would say that the cooperation within the... on the European platform is on a completely different level now that we are there than if we were not there {in the EU}, I believe that.

[00:20:19]

M: Okay, thanks for your comments! If we turn the cake around and if it was said that the EU membership has been unfavorable to Finland, what disadvantages would you list?

FIFG1_M1: There I would like to bring up, I don't really know if you can see it as a concrete disadvantage, but this saying with kind children waits and are left without. Post-war Finland and our parents’ generations and grandparents have had a very high work ethic and this Protestant work ethic in Finland and these things to perform very well, it has actually cost us quite dearly in the EU context and in the Euro cooperation. Because it turned out after the euro had been introduced and when Italy and Greece and these "banana republics" around the Mediterranean when their economies began to collapse or risked collapsing that they had not been really honest about their interest rate levels and prime rate levels and inflation levels before EMU. And it's not really something we {Finland} can do anything about. We chose to be in the same boat as those countries who couldn't really row, and we were quite good rowers ourselves and we had to row as hell and we are still rowing. And there I can sometimes feel a disadvantage that we have been too blue-eyed. We have simply been pissed in the lens by the Italians and Greeks, especially in euro cooperation. I don't know if I can say concretely what the issue is... but hope you understand what I mean.

FIFG1_M2: I share FIFG1_M1 your opinion I use perhaps some other words, but we are perhaps sticking to duty we {Finland} we are conscientious we actually ratify all [hmm] directives to the point and in detail. I'm not very good at the economy because I don't have an economic background the same way as you FIFG1_M1, so you're better at that. But I can believe and buy your arguments and your discussion there that this particular EMU cooperation and our budget tolerance we really stay within those frameworks. Or, I think, I'm not very competent at this. But I agree... what I may have as a little disadvantage of my own, it has to do with economics and of course I am not so negative about it, but I know that many in these discussions are, so when you start talking about the negative aspects of EU it is, I don't know, but I think we are net payers we do not get as much economic benefits as maybe we put money into the EU's budget. And now I don't know if that's the real truth, but this is being lifted up and I can buy that argument maybe if you were to spice it up strongly. But for me, personally, it is not such a strong negative aspect. I am happy to pay my taxes, I am actually perhaps a little different on that front so for me it is not personally such a negative aspect with the EU, but I know that it is being raised now and then.

FIFG1_F3: What you might also see as negative are these structural changes. As with the EU, all small scaled farmers and small businesses had to adapt whether they wanted to or not. Small farms had no future in EU they had to grow or go under. And these were things many people suffered from, and thought it was negative. Perhaps for the consumer it became cheaper prices but for the producers it became a forced must. So that you can see as something negative.

FIFG1_F4: I'm thinking a little bit about this administration so it's a bit cumbersome sometimes, that's how it feels sometimes at least. That there are quite a lot of directives and things that we are supposed to follow and also how the whole thing is organized. So, it can sometimes feel a little cumbersome before the decisions get made, or before you really get them through. Maybe it's... how fast we are in European decision-making.

[00:25:26]

M: Thank you very much! We continue to the following section, and I would like you to imagine that there is a large-scale natural disaster such as an earthquake, a flood, or a forest fire in an EU country. How should the EU as an institution in this case react?

(long pause)

FIFG1_F4: Maybe we can start by discussing a little and throw some ideas around and we'll get started. But I guess it is to start gathering the troops and start cooperating and think about what we should do and not leave at least that country alone in any way. And it's still a little bit to think about how we can help and what kind of help is needed... That's the first thing I think of.

M: Thank you! Is there any institution in the EU that you think should take the lead, or?

FIFG1_F4: No, I do not really know which insitution I would put it on. Like in that way who would take this role but I think if there is a big crisis, if something happens in the EU, we should take care of it and not leave it be. But what institution it is, is not clear for me.

M: Okay, thank you.

FIFG1_M1: I'm thinking about the fact that if we have had a crisis like that we could relate to, some natural disaster. I can't really think of any. That you would think of one {disaster}. But we have crises that have affected EU. For example, the refugee crisis, then we had EU agencies that were there. Frontex was there to work, and I think the whole handling of the refugee crisis has been pathetic and substandard. You can have whatever opinion you want about the refugee crisis, I think it is of course very sad that a lot of people are drowning in the Mediterranean. But I think the EU is doing very little about the problem itself. Frontex is very weak, we Northerners are sitting up here in the North pointing the finger at the Greeks who have open borders and the Italys’ border who is is leaking like a sieve and they are letting a lot of people into Europe. And we are really bad at coordinating our scarce resources to be able to handle one of these {crises}, it is not a natural disaster... and it is perhaps a bit ugly to compare the refugee crisis with that, but it is now the closest I came to think about [hmm] about something concrete that has happened there in the EU when we should have coordinated our resources. I think we're very bad at it.

M: As an example {of a natural disaster in Europe}, perhaps one could speak about the floods in Germany last summer. They may not have been so large-scaled, but still.

FIFG1_M1: Yes, but there spontaneously I can feel that it is the Germans' problem. They have surely done something flawed with their ponds or something like that. Now I say it so provocatively just to show how indifferent I am to this. And I do not know now whether I am a failed EU citizen or is it that EU has simply failed in this to communicate that we have a shared responsibility for major disasters. For me, at least it hasn't sunk in.

[00:29:45]

FIFG1_M2: Yes, I agree a little bit with [coughing] it was, I don't know if it was FIFG1_F4 who thought we should put in action forces or this, you know, I'm thinking about FIFG1_M1 comment about Frontex. So yes, I'm not really... I was thinking about Germany’s floods myself here too, but those... thought about another parallel, it was not such a major natural disaster. But the ash-clouds when there was a little volcano in Iceland that blocked air traffic. It was not a huge natural disaster, but you are caught a bit in the act in Europe {meaning "We are not prepared for these kind of events"}. There are a lot of opinions for that, but it's not like we would be completely under all criticism when it comes to difficult crisis situations. It could be worse, I mean. I mean, I don't think those task forces are always what the German floods or Icelandic ash clouds {needs}… you don't even necessarily want that foreign firefighter there or whatever the aid is {doctors etc.}. I think there is already enough to have a certain solidarity and have the opportunity to ask for that help when it is needed. When there was a fire in Sweden, larger forest fires, many Finnish firefighter went over there. The question of what one should react to, then when needed, one should be able to be physically on hand within Europe. The need to have a huge... I hope I don't have to experience a natural disaster. But I think we in EU are ready to send that help to our neighbors as well.

FIFG1_M1: If I can briefly continue here. I came to think of when you FIFG1_M2 talked about the forest fires in Sweden... It was probably 5-6 years ago when there were quite large fires in Estonia. Finland sent a lot of firefighters at a very short notice. Among other things, my brother-in-law sat out in some remote forest far outside Tallinn and guarded a pump for 12 days. And that happened and then you got maybe a little insight, that there is probably a concrete {cooperation}, but I had completely repressed, or forgotten about it.

FIFG1_F4: This is what I was looking for. This is something we need to do together. We can't just sit at home and watch and think that okay this is not something that concerns me. It's something we help with. I think there's one of... but that what I might think of the future is that natural disasters can be something, unfortunately given the climate change that we have today, it may be something that we get to experience more of. Perhaps there is then a need to be something that does... It's just that you start thinking about something about the EU, what kind of types there is.... I don't know how much we've worked nowadays with the solidarity funds either... But this is something you might have to think about.

FIFG1_F3: Yes... here some [family members] come in and started to bother me and therefore there was a bit of a break. But what I also thought about was the forest fires in Sweden and such that at least from here from <place of residence> there were many who went there. But many of the disasters we have now seen have been national, national forces are primarily taking care of it. But then you help each other like that in {name of} solidarity if it’s needed but... As you have already mentioned that you do not know what the future holds, perhaps there would need to be some more readiness... Around the Baltic Sea, there have been co-operations and exercises concerning some environmental disaster. But who should lead it {from the EU}, I can't decide either.

M: If I may then briefly ask both FIFG1_M2 and FIFG1_F3 that with solidarity in this context you mean that there is a certain understanding that if help is needed, other countries will help. Did I understand you right there?

FIFG1_M2: Yes, I think you will get help, when it's needed.

M: Okay.

FIFG1_F3: Yes, same here.

M: Okay thanks-

FIFG1_M1: -So when the Russians attack, FIFG1_M2 trust that the Swedes come with help from Gotland.-

M: -We are sticking to the same question, should some EU countries do a little more than others, if such a large-scale natural disaster were to happen in an EU country?

FIFG1_M2: Can you say {the question} again?

M: Do you think that a particular EU country should do more than other EU countries in the event of a natural disaster like this? Or should everyone {countries} help as much, or as little.

FIFG1_M1: Some EU-countries always do more. It may be because, I'm thinking about Germany, which is the, it's probably the biggest country in the EU. I have a bit of ignorance here, but it's probably the biggest country in the EU. So, they have a population that is much larger than Finland's and then Germany's efforts should also be more visible, and they should also get more visibility because they are so much larger, they have so much bigger muscles than we {Finland} have. Then if you were to start divide, take those cumulative efforts and divide it by the number of inhabitants and try to split it down to some kind of citizen level, and see how big is that effort per citizen. So that's the level you should try to find some kind of justice. {To avoid} that a country with five million inhabitants pulls as heavy a load as a country of 50 million inhabitants. And here I think we will find differences. Now I'm pulling this completely from the hat, I have no evidence of this, this is based only and solely on my prejudices. But if we compare, for example, Germany and Spain, which are two rather large nations, I dare to say quite spontaneously that Germany is doing a larger job than Spain does. Completely without evidence.

M: Thank you. If I understood you correctly, you think it would be fair if the larger countries help more than the smaller ones, because they have... Because they simply can?

FIFG1_M1: Because they have a bigger base. They have a larger number... But I am afraid that not all the major EU countries help as much. I am afraid that Germany if we compare some large countries, so Germany and France are making greater contributions jointly to the EU than Spain does. What it then depends on, I don't know. It could also be that I’m wrong. This is just what my gut tells me, that this is the case.

FIFG1_M2: I think that if you look at the efforts for the common good per capita, there are probably big differences there. I think I'll sign FIFG1_M1 opinions {agree with}. Then of course it is, it is not so easy to always just divide per capita there are huge differences in financial resources, how to then do that distribution fair is then not so easy. I don’t think perhaps so much about Spain I think perhaps more about the countries that are in the eastern parts of the EU. Okay yes, we Finland are also there, but I think more about the central eastern parts. There are certainly those nations that may not do their part as much as we {Finland} do. Okay, it may be that they don't have the financial resources to do it, but I think there could be more efforts {from those countries} that could also happen. That yes, sure I think you could, to answer the question, yes, you could try to distribute it more fairly. How that justice is measured is then a completely different question that I cannot really take a position on, without reading more about the matter.

FIFG1_F3: Yes, I don't know if I have anything else to add here either. Perhaps it will be systematic that the big countries do more because they have better resources and larger economies and so on.

[00:38:39]

M: Okay, thank you. How should Finland then react in this context?

FIFG1_M1: In what context do you mean, do you want to clarify-

M: -In the same context, if there is a large-scale natural disaster, how do you think Finland should react. You may have already been a little into this topic before, but you are welcome to add some remaining comments.

FIFG1_M1: Finland is geographically located in a corner of the EU. And I think these fire situations have been pretty good examples that we send, we can send help to Sweden and send help to Estonia because we have good connections to the two neighboring countries. But if something were to happen, such as the floods in Germany, or something like that, it is completely preposterous that we from Finland would start sending someone down there. If we now think of the type of help, which requires personal input. I don't really know with financial help. It has not been a thing of the EU countries handing out, or making, that kind of contribution {economic contribution} to each other. It is managed centrally via the EU in such cases.

FIFG1_F4: We are surely involved in helping with things that we can help with, and where we have, what should we say, where we have knowledge to help with and competence. But I'm also a bit into that, if it's in Southern Europe, maybe someone else is closer who can help and so on. But it depends on what kind of natural disaster it is as well, and what kind of help is needed. I think Finland is willing to do its part, so to speak.

M: Should we move on, or does anyone want to add anything?

(short pause)

M: We were already on this subject, but if there was a need to send a crisis management team, doctors or firefighters to the affected country, do you think that Finland should do so and if we do, who should cover the costs?

FIFG1_F4: I think Finland should do it, but the costs should surely be something that also comes together from the Union, that then you can... If we have the competence to participate and the opportunity, we should be involved, but it is not only Finland that should stand, or I do not think that Finland should bear the costs alone. It should be together. But there again, according to the efforts that we put into the EU some kind of relationship to size is needed.

FIFG1_M1: I'd would like to get back to this Frontex, the thing that we've been into before. I find it remarkable how little we are doing in the framework of Frontex. And how much we sit and pretend that the Italian borders leak like a sieve when these refugees come in. In the end we do very little, and we send... we have no resources. I don't even know if anyone has asked for our help. But then we are [a little sarcastic tone] prepared to equip a large ship and provide them with cooling units and with double crews and send them down to the Gulf of Aden to hunt pirates. Which is a huge problem, but it is not even an EU internal problem, it affects the EU, and it affects our trade this way. But my view is that when it comes to the border protection, the EU's external border, we have put in very little resources. But then when we go to the African Horn on pirate hunting it's maybe a little bit sexier and then you can put more money on it.

FIFG1_M2: I'm thinking about, I'm thinking of another natural disaster that would be over the dimensions that I have now at the moment kind of experienced or imagined. If it really pinches {meaning "If there was a dire need"}, then I think that Finland should of course send those firefighters or doctors or whatever is needed. And there if it becomes a serious, a really definitive natural disaster, then I can probably even imagine that it does not have to be joint money. But if it really pinches, I think that we {Finland} would also put in an economic [sigh] I would perhaps not if it is a natural disaster… the economic reconstruction, that's another thing. I think more about the direct saving of lives, saving people, saving communities so I think you can send that on at your own expense too... but then I would like to see a natural disaster of that dimension that we have not experienced, in my lifetime.

FIFG1_M1: But of course [agrees with FIFG1_M2]. It is this first help, so on the whole we're talking about small money. And that I think the individual nations can pay for. At least a rich country like Finland.

FIFG1_M2: Yes, exactly! But then I want to keep the economic rebuilding separate from that emergency task force.

FIFG1_F4: Maybe I thought a little further there, also there on Finland's knowledge and such. We are a country that has a lot of knowledge and has a lot of competence of various kinds, and then in terms of economic reconstruction, so there I think you have to think about who will bear the costs. But of course, with any crisis or disaster in the world, Finland is usually the one that goes, and I think it is absolutely right that you have your strengths and go.

FIFG1_F3: I agree with you here too. It is not only the State of Finland that sends {help}, but we also have many associations and volunteers who are willing to also stand up and leave Finland and help in these crisis. Then perhaps more is happening on a voluntary basis, but why shouldn't the state also help more actively in different crisis situations.

M: Thank you very much then...-

FIFG1_M1: -It was not a natural disaster and Finland had not yet really had time to join the EU, it was right during those times. But when MS Estonia sank {referring to the MS Estonia Ferry Disaster in 1994}, it was a major disaster that we can all relate to. And as far as I remember, it has never been between these nations that cleared up this mess, so Finland, Sweden, and Estonia, have never discussed any money. Who put in what efforts and how much Finland made in relation to how few Finns there were {who died} so we put enormous resources on helicopters and the health care in Turku was overloaded for several weeks and such. But it has never been discussed {money} and I think it is a non-issue that should not be discussed. And I hope that this is the spirit in EU if there is a disaster of that magnitude.

M: Okay, thank you very much! Last question for this section, do you personally feel a responsibility to help, in the event of a natural disaster in an EU country.

FIFG1_M1: I can say no right away. I don't feel a personal responsibility to go down to Germany and fill sandbags around the Rhine River and build barriers. I pay enough taxes in this country and I trust that some of the tax money that I pay is used in such a way that I don't have to think about that myself.

FIFG1_M2: I think, I'm thinking partly yes. I don't know if my special skills could be useful in such crisis situations, but if I were to have a more perhaps useful special competence then yes, I have to admit that I would feel a calling. Now I am a relatively highly educated chemist and I have some special knowledge, but it may not come directly in use, if it would be angled a little differently than I would imagine that there might be a need for such knowledge. Yes... I'm not an active reservist but I have a certain rank anyway {in the military}, so yes, from that point of view also seen it might be. I am a weak yes.

FIFG1_F3: Maybe not the way that I should go down {to that country}. But what you can contribute from home, everything from financial to collecting clothes or whatever it may be, food packages whatever. I would be prepared for things like that. I don't think I would go down there I don't feel like I have such a special skill that would be needed for that.

FIFG1_F4: If my communication skills were needed, for example, I would be willing to give that time and be able to work and help if it were to be. But I agree with FIFG1_F3 that what I can do from home, the charity, be a fellow human being in the way that gathers something together and helps in that way from a voluntary basis, I could certainly also imagine to help. I'm the one who always puts a euro in if there's a disaster somewhere. If there is a disaster somewhere, you put a euro or two or maybe more in some pot, or something else already now, so there is nothing that would stop me from doing it either if it were a natural disaster somewhere or some other type of crisis. But I also expect if there is a crisis or a disaster in Finland, I expect the same. That Finland gets the same help, that it is not just that we might help some countries that are otherwise economically, we could say worse off than Finland, and if it were to happen in Finland, we would stand alone or perhaps {only} with the Nordic countries to help. We should get the same help here in the North as for example Southern Europe gets.

[00:51:55]

M: Thank you very much! We continue to the following section of questions. If an economic crisis like the euro crisis happens again and some countries are hit more severely than others, how should Finland react, what do you think?

FIFG1_F3: In this way, it can be difficult to say that Finland should act in any way of its own. Because we are connected to the euro and to the European Central Bank. I don't know if Finland there can say that now we are not going to do anything or that we are not helping anyone. If you've joined this {EU}, you have to be a part of it. So, I don’t see Finland having an alternative there.

FIFG1_M2: I have to admit that we have {options} enough when it comes down to it. Then we'll probably have all our options, then we probably can… I never thought that the day would come that Britain would leave the EU, but that day has come. And there they are now. I think we have options anyway, I don't think we should, if a part of the ship really sinks drastically and catastrophically again. An even bigger economic crisis than we've experienced [laughing] I don't know if it can get bigger. But I'm sure that it can probably. I think we should, we were close to the edge {last time}, I could perhaps personally think of some sort of contribution or kind of economic stimulus package, or whatever it should be called I am not very good at this. But I don't think it was that far from the edge {last time}, that if it then sinks big, let it fall then.

FIFG1_M1: I want to go in and continue FIFG1_M2 argument. If it heads towards the woods, let it fall. But do not let the whole euro area fall, for example, if there is an economic crisis. Cut off the weak branch and separate that sweltering and let it collapse. And there I was probably, as I was already a little into it before, my slightly negative attitudes towards Southern Europeans and that I feel we {Finland} who are always best in class were a little deceived. Partly because we were among the few in the euro area who actually had our economy in shape for EMU. Then some of those economies who were not quite in shape was so incredibly much bigger than our economy. It is not possible if you compare the markka area with the lira area, it is completely different worlds. The fact that it does not matter that we in Finland overperform hundreds of percent if the Italians underperforms, they are such an incredibly weighty economy. If such an economy, nowadays a part of our common economy, if that part of the economy is collapsing, then my threshold for cutting it off and letting it sink is not very high. So, there's probably that... When it comes to economic cooperation, there I probably didn't have solidarity on my list in the first place on the three points, but especially when it comes to economic cooperation, solidarity is not on my list.

M: Is this because of what happened in 2009-2010 and what we learned from it, or?

FIFG1_M1: Pretty much, yes.

M: Okay, thank you.

FIFG1_F3: At the same time, one might think that it is not Finland that can decide whether it is falling. We'll see what Finland's alternatives are. In that case, Finland can leave the EU, that is {our options}. At the same time, there was also some benefit to us here. Economic crisis led to low interest rates, as with those with home loans and such it has been grateful for [laughing] from a personal perspective. But then-

FIFG1_M1: It is also a truth with modification because the interest rate must always be put in proportion to the level of inflation that prevails in society-

FIFG1_F3: -well yes-

FIFG1_M1: -and now in recent years we have had zero inflation we have even had deflation in some areas. So, a zero-interest rate that means it's status ( ) there's no change. But when talking to dad who tells me what it was like when he took his first home loan and when the interest rates were 13-14% then it was “ojoj”. It should be remembered that inflation in those years could many times be around 20%. We could have an inflation rate that could be up to five percentage points higher than a standard interest rate. So that means, what they experienced was actually a negative interest rate of minus five percent because the value of money decreases faster than what you paid for foreign capital, if you know what I mean. And that's why this is historically low interest rates and yes - it’s exceptional with these negative interest rates - and it's hard to understand that. I must have missed that course during university when the policy rate turned negative. It's hard to believe that it could even happen. But I would not say that this situation now is in any way exceptional from a longer perspective because at the same time we have zero inflation.

M: Thank you for your comments! Well, if it were Finland that would be severely affected by this euro crisis, how do you think the other countries should react within the EU? If Finland in this case were to be one of the great victims.

FIFG1_M1: It probably depends a long way on whether we ourselves have caused that crisis, or not. That we have, for example, as the Icelanders faced a really tricky situation when their banking system had run amok and invested in a lot of properties around Europe. And they just believed in eternal growth, so you'll probably have to blame yourself a little bit. And in such a situation, you must be able to examine yourself as a nation, which is for sure very difficult in a crisis situation, and you are definitely not objective when examining yourself. But at least I hope that if we are the one who suffers that at least we as a nation, that I would be sober enough to see if we ourselves have put ourselves in this situation or is it that someone else has put us in this situation. If it is the case that we have put ourselves in the situation, then you stand your ground and then you have to stand for your own problems. But if it is an external trigger that has put us in a tricky situation, then I expect solidarity. Although I just proclaimed that I don't stand for solidarity, so I'm pretty contradictory today [laughter] but there it is... For me, there is a crucial difference in this that what has triggered this crisis.

FIFG1_M2: I buy FIFG1_M1 discussion pretty easily here. I don't have much to add there. I think nearly the same, FIFG1_M1 was a little better at putting it into words than I might have been able to.

FIFG1_F3: I hope they save Finland too. Finland has helped others. But of course, the differences are there too, that what is the reason for {the crisis}. But if you have an economic cooperation, you have {it}.

FIFG1_M1: We started in our family when the Greek crisis was so great, we started our own support package in our family that when we buy olive oil, we always buy that bottle that has a Greek flag on it.

M: Thank you! But if I understood you correctly FIFG1_F3, do you think some Southern European states owe us help because we helped them in 2009 and 2010?

FIFG1_F3: Yes, why not? You can see it that way too. If there were to be a opposite situation, that is, their economies would be strong and our weak, then I think they should help Finland in the same way.

M: Thank you!

FIFG1_F4: Yes, that's how it should be according to if you think about what it looks like today this cooperation. You expect what you give to others, you expect yourself to get too. But I understand FIFG1_M1 and FIFG1_M2 thoughts here and probably underline it myself as well. If it's self-inflicted, we'll probably have to look in the mirror and think that who put us here. And if it was us who put us here, we should not have anyone else to sort it out either, but then we must think about what we have done ourselves and sort it out according to that as well. But it applies to all, the same rules for the other countries as well, that if they have put themselves on the potty {meaning: in a tricky situation}, they will also sort it out and not expect the rest of us to sort it out for them. The same rules for everyone.

M: Thank you very much! Does anyone have anything to add, or should we move on?

M: Then we go to the last section of questions. Please keep in mind that there are inequalities between countries and between people in a country, should the EU have a common programme or fund to reduce inequality in society, for example, regarding the increasing income inequalities in society. If yes, why and if no, why not?

M: It was a pretty long question, so just say if I should repeat it.

FIFG1_M1: I can start. I can answer that yes, I think that somehow, we need to, centralized through the EU need to work for and also work with financial support to overcome such gaps. Because it is not always enough that we just identify that there are large income inequalities and completely, I mean, the starting point, the socio-economic starting point for children in the same country can be very very different. And even though we Finland, it has been reported that the gaps in our country are increasing, I dare to say that the difference between poor and rich in Finland is less than between poor and rich in Bulgaria. And I think we are so privileged in Finland that we not even really understand how big gaps can look for real. So yes, I think we need to work more on this issue. Partly to actually overcome these gaps and partly to give these gaps in society the visibility they need to get.

FIFG1_M2: I agree with you there. I want to have a little definition game. Equality and Equality. Equality is usually defined between genders. Equality is the more general… FIFG1_M1 mentioned in socio-economic background but also equality there are several dimensions of that. I think from a more European general perspective there are opportunities. And yes, I think we should use those opportunities to reduce the gaps at all levels. There are, we are pretty good at it, I think in our Nordic countries. We for sure have many, many things in our societies here in the Nordic countries that are more equal than in many other European society structures. And there I think we should... not only the economic there are probably other structures such as physical and mental different backgrounds that can affect people's everyday lives, so I think we should work on a European level. Yes, definitely from my point of view.

FIFG1_F3: I also think that this is one of the things that the EU should work with. If you consider making financial contributions to economically disadvantaged regions in order to strengthen those areas. So, taking that into consideration, this is something that's just as important, to strengthen this equality, so I think it's an important area, yes.

FIFG1_F4: Yes, I'm on the same level. I answer yes, absolutely it is something we should work with within the EU and precisely to reduce differences between different people, you must say that in this way… also provide better conditions for a sustainable future.

FIFG1_M2: I could add, I hope I didn't interrupt you FIFG1_F4. We actually played a little... it is not a brainstorm session we have had but on the research side here at <place of work> we have in some contexts, we have discussed aspects because we have a lot of international research activities via <place of work>. We have cooperation projects and programmes with several different European countries and nations and in those, of course, the latest developments have not always necessarily been positive towards the better. It's strange that sometimes it goes backwards {the development}. And we have been able to say, and we have some, do not apply to me personally, but we have some who work with some Eastern European countries where they have seen clearly more trouble lately than before. And it's a little worrying, actually, that it can go backwards as well. There we from EU, I am thinking of us as EU, a larger community, there we should be strong and able… it would be important that we could strongly show the right direction, so to speak.

[01:09:08]

FIFG1_M1: But that's probably a little bit in the spirit of the times. That these gaps should be allowed to grow. We have populist parties, we have former Eastern Bloc countries that have more or less authoritarian leaders and which introduce different nationalist programs and these measures tend to widen the gaps in society. And if we look at EU level, you can see these are a micro-example, these individual states that go in and make restrictions. But if you look at the macro level, across the EU, the whole UK's exit is probably one, a prime example of this solidarity basically not working. Because the majority in that country thought that screw this, we want the NHS {National Health Service} to be, get better and you know, we want our own country back and there were different populist tones. And I don't think they were very pleased {participant probably refers to the outcome of Brexit}. But the fact that the UK drove Brexit through is probably a signal to me that there are real macro-level issues in the EU. And, specifically, with these divisions. Britain is a very rich country. There is a gap between the UK and Bulgaria. And the UK thinks they don't want to pay for Bulgaria's problems, they want to mind their own business and drink some tea.

M: Thank you very much! We continue, with a bit of the same theme. Do you think that the EU should have an EU-wide system for dealing with unemployment in all member states, which is then financed by all member states.

FIFG1_M1: I'd probably say no to that. Unemployment is so different, in different parts of the EU. The fact that it is at least in the current situation would be very difficult to deal with it in a uniform way. And in combination with that, the different member states have such different safety nets, social safety nets and it also makes them, it will be very difficult to look at it from an EU perspective. These are issues that better can be resolved at national level.

FIFG1_M2: Yes, I'd choose, yes, I'd choose the same content {as FIFG1_M1}, maybe little different words. Our social safety nets, or perhaps the very word you FIFG1_M1 used, but the social support structures in communities are so different that it would require a huge reworking of all forms of support, and I am not really, there must be so much... Europe is diversified in many aspects and that is one such aspect. I agree... I answer as FIFG1_M1, no.

FIFG1_F4: My answer is also no. I don't think it would be possible to implement, I'm just thinking about the whole administrative part to deal with something like this. And then to make it work, in such a large area. With so many different types of systems, to make it work. I think or... I believe that this is something we are not yet able to move up to EU level.

FIFG1_F3: Yes, I think it feels pretty big. In that case, to be able to stimulate the labor market in some way then that it could be given. But a unified system seems incalculable.

M: Okay thanks-

FIFG1_F4: -If there's anything like you might think could help... or reduce that unemployment in some other way. Then work with education policy and education and that kind of stuff and support it that everyone has the opportunity for education and thus an opportunity to get a profession. And then the free movement to also be able to freely move within the EU to seek or create work for oneself. That kind of thing, which we’re already doing… to have that system for unemployment, no, I don't believe in that.

FIFG1_M1: There's a built-in problem in this. I don't think education is the answer to everything. And I myself proclaimed many many years ago when the Ministry of Education 20 years ago went out and said that in the future 70% of Finns should have a higher education. So, I realized that that day I will start with laying tiles. For the day 70% of Finns have a university education, there will not be people who want to lay tiles and then it will be really valuable work. And we'll soon be there, and we're starting to see these problems and they're related to the gapes. But we must also acknowledge the gaps and differences in society to a certain degree. After Brexit, for example, they had a fuel crisis when the trucks were not driving, because there simply weren't enough drivers. They were too good {the Britts} to drive those cars {themselves}. It had created a low-wage sector where people from other countries had been brought in to do this {driving}. What is related to this is that unemployment looks very different in different parts of Europe. It is therefore very difficult to harmonies it. I dare say that in Southern Europe we do not have as many unemployed highly educated people as we have, for example, in Finland. And it is related to the educational propensity/tendency and degree of society as a whole. But there are completely different basic problems. That we, now I make stuff up again, but let’s say that in Spain we have a bunch of unemployed people who have worked in the agricultural industry and we go to Finland and see, we do not have so much unemployed people who have worked in the agricultural industry. Instead, we have a bunch of people with a philosophy masters’ degree who don't get a job, because there is no need for a lot of biologists. And that is why it is difficult for them to find jobs that correspond with their education. So, this makes the issue of unemployment so complex. And this structural unemployment that exists in society, which looks so different in different nations.

M: Thank you! If an individual or specific country then has a very high unemployment rate, should the EU try to reduce it? Do you stick to what you said earlier, or does it change if we're just talking about one country?

FIFG1_M2: No, it doesn't really change because we have in the EU, we have free movement of workers, and we have free movement... If we are not going to go, my answer is no. Roughly with the same justifications that we have heard from all, I think. I'm still answering no to the question.

FIFG1_M2: I must admit, a little addition. FIFG1_M1 you were actually right that percentage was 70. I was also really fascinated by that percentage when it was current. I think it was crazy [laughter].

FIFG1_M1: The Minister of Education was named Maija Rask at the time [laughter].

FIFG1_M2: Yes, it was just a side note.

FIFG1_M1: I stand by this, no. But I would not completely rule out, the possibility of, any kind of incentive that would make EU citizens of this individual country choose to take advantage of their freedom of movement. That somehow, I think it could be added that an individual, or the citizens of a single EU country or territory, would receive some form of support or carrot {an incentive} to move within the EU to another place. Where there is a big shortage of those who are unemployed in that country.

FIFG1_F4: But here we also need this information so that everyone knows what opportunities there are. And these are something that EU has a role in, to spread knowledge also about, about freedom of movement and various opportunities to create, create jobs and find jobs. And that is something we may also, as the EU could have a role in the future and perhaps also should have a role in. And then this is exactly what you FIFG1_M1 said, to find their job in another country and so on. This is something we are already working on in the EU.

FIFG1_F4: And a side note, so this thing with education. When I've talked about education, I may not have always thought about everyone getting highly educated. Although I may have such a background as well because I have worked in a vocational university for many many years, but I may think in this way, that many industries need educated people today. You can't lay tiles either, without some kind of study. When I talk about education, I don't always talk about higher education. Just a side note.

(short pause)

M: Do FIFG1_F3 still want to add anything, or should we move on.

FIFG1_F3: I have nothing more to add [laughter].

M: Okay, thank you. You have already discussed this a little, but one final question yet on this topic, should Finland help to reduce unemployment in another country, even if it would mean additional costs for us?

FIFG1_F3: I'd probably say no there. That it is probably the individual country there that must, find some way to reduce unemployment there... I don't see that as Finland's job.

FIFG1_M1: I think I'm on the same page. It is the "no" line that continues here.

FIFG1_M2: I usually present myself as a positive person, but now I hold on to “no” [laughter].

FIFG1_F4: We'll all just have to continue on the “no” line.

[01:22:26]

M: Okay! Thank you very much for your comments we are now nearing the end, but I have some final questions I would still like to ask of you. Today we have discussed the EU from different areas such as social inequalities and economic issues. Are there some other areas that you would say are relevant when talking about relations and about mutual cooperation within the European Union. Which has not yet been mentioned today.

FIFG1_M1: I would like to highlight one that has been mentioned today but, but which is important, important to me and that is this border, border cooperation. I may not be in favor of joint defense cooperation yet. Because I hope that the peace machine that the EU is in its core would not have to invest actively in military power. The EU has many and long borders with the rest of the world. And these borders are not always {un}problematic. And for me, this shared responsibility for borders is something that should be stronger. I say this because I believe that we in the Nordic countries should take much greater responsibility for the crisis that is going on in the Mediterranean. My cynical attitude is that we should jointly ensure that the EU's external border to the south is so strong that no one gets in a boat and drowns in the Mediterranean. After that, we could think about how we deal with that crisis because the fundamental problems why Africans come here, that we have not solved. But the reason why I would want to invest a lot in this common border thing in Southern Europe is that Finland has a very long external border within the EU. And we have 1200 kilometers towards Russia and at the moment that is not a problem. But when you see how things are going in Ukraine, it is not at all far-fetched that in the foreseeable future it can become a problem for Finland that we have a very long border with Russia. And then I hope we have... that we get the support that I would also like to give to Southern Europe now. So, the border service is something I would like to highlight.

FIFG1_M2: I have something. As I might want to highlight, or almost two. One of them is, or I mentioned it, and maybe it was discussed a little bit. The sustainability aspects that I think and think they are a global issue. I said there at some stage that I think we, or I want us to be there and steer the ship {take charge} from... as an EU whole, as a European whole. Perhaps not necessarily EU either, but a European captain to get our global world to be sustainable. I have to remind you that there in sustainability... It is often thought that it is just the environment and nature. But a true sustainability aspect, it has... you can present it in different ways, but the simplest and fastest it is three-parted, it has an environmental issue, and the environment is of course one, but social structures are also the second part and the third is the economic structures. All three parts must be in order for it to work. And I would like to emphasize that aspect. It may not have been fully discussed today, but it was probably there, at least between the lines. Then the second thing that I FIFG1_M1 was a little concerned about, that political, geopolitical situation near Europe is an issue that I am also a little concerned about. Then I might also want to open it more, we have a global, very international world. So, everything affects everything, almost, not completely but almost. So that question is something that I'm also a little worried about. There are these two big worries. They probably won't crack in my lifetime, I hope. The risks are there, of course.

FIFG1_F3: In addition to that one might also see the EU's role in the world as a counterweight to... Fortunately, Trump is not president. But if you think about a counterweight to the U.S. what they're up to and to Russia and these {big powers}... That you can then unified stand against [laughter] if you can say so or uphold these values that are important to Europe. Such as democracy and human rights. But otherwise also these climate issues or these that FIFG1_M2 were into, I think are important.

FIFG1_F4: Yes, I think I'm on the same page. I think the sustainability issue is very important and we must probably look at it as a whole, but as one of the concrete things I think you highlighted, everything you cannot do at the same time. I think we need to work on climate change. Then also this one regarding EU's role in the world I think it is important to think about what it will be in the future. Yes, we may not always want to say that there are threats in this world, but they exist, and we see them in today's situation. And then we need to think a little more about this part, what is EU's role in the global world. I am not completely, I do understand FIFG1_M1 thoughts with border controls or border work and common borders and all that and what you could really call it. What kind, it's not defense work we're thinking about, it's more border work. But I think that these issues are the central ones that should be raised here at EU level as well. But what we have not discussed about at all is also that what all the discussions addresses today, the pandemic. But I think that is also something we need to remember and think about what is EU's role in these kinds of issues. Because I don't think this is, or I hope, we won’t see recurring pandemics at such regular intervals, but we know that there will be more pandemics as well because the world is so global as it is today. But we should look at how we handle things like that in the future. Perhaps we need to be more prepared for these kinds of situations in the world, in the future. I think there were still many who were taken by surprise when it came to the fact that the corona really became a pandemic.

M: Thank you very much! The second last question then, how would you say that the areas we have talked about today are connected to Finland's future in the EU?

FIFG1_M2: It was only an hour and a half, you don't have time to discuss the whole of Europe and the whole of EU and the whole of Finland. Yes, it was, there are certainly things we could have... In this time, it was all right {the discussed topic and their relevance}. Relatively well. There were some flaws, but yes.

FIFG1_M1: I'd say I'm getting so tired in my head that I didn't understand the question. But jokes aside this is a scratch on the surface of very current and central issues in the EU and thus also for Finland.

(short pause)

M: Do FIFG1_F4 or FIFG1_F3 want to say something, or should we go to the last question?

FIFG1_F4: I can at least say that I agree that these are important issues and important issues for Finland’s future. In EU and for EU in the world if we say so.

FIFG1_F3: I agree with the others.

M: Thank you, what would be your last comment for our discussion?

(short pause)

FIFG1_M1: Spontaneously, entirely from an egotistical perspective. My comment to those of you who have arranged this, that thank you for letting me be part of an eye opener… I consume news and media like everyone else. But basically when it comes to political engagement, I must admit that especially after such a discussion, the case is unfortunately in many respects that I am quite jaded and not very interested in political issues that go on a EU level. Life is local as it says on ÅU {a local newspaper} posters. It is local life and this daily politics and often municipal politics, that are closer to my heart. Today’s discussion has made me examine myself, that you should get better at thinking big and discussing big.

FIFG1_M2: A final comment. I think we were surprising, maybe, we were surprisingly similar. There were small differences between the four of us here. But if I remember correctly, our group would be of the same background, education wise so on. I know of those too, I have in my social circle Swedish-speaking Finns who have perhaps, although they have a relatively similar educational or socio-economic background as I do, I can imagine that there are in my circle of acquaintances such people who would give a greater spread of opinions. I think we were surprisingly similar. But it's a pick {referring to sample of participants}.

FIFG1_F3: A little what I was also thinking about or was into. At the first question, we all had pretty much the same answer. There have been quite similar answers in that way. But nevertheless, interesting to hear from people you've never seen before. It was interesting to hear your comments.

FIFG1_F4: As a final comment. Though the discussion has hovered and sometimes many different things and addressed things that we are more critical of and so on. I think we still think that we all, or I myself, still have a positive image for EU. And that the EU is the future and cannot see that Finland would not be part of the EU that, perhaps, it is a final comment, like this after everyone else. I also think we were very much of the same opinion. Small differences, of course. And that's good, we look with our backgrounds a little differently on issues and maybe are familiar with different things in different ways and so on. But it's been interesting and thank you for letting me join in, it's been interesting. And in the end, you can say that those who want to discuss European issues, the Europa Forum is held every year in August in Turku. So, it's something you're more than happy to take part of, online as well, you don't have to be in Turku to take part in the discussions.

M: Then I would like to thank you all, a big thank you to all four of you for taking your time today and we have now discussed almost for an hour and 40 minutes. In my opinion it was a good discussion. Thank you very much!